Talk:Criticism of Pokémon

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An entry from Criticism of Pokémon appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know? column on 25 July 2006.

Contents 1 Unnecessary Comments Regarding Protestantism 2 Violence 3 My response 4 Poorly named 5 Swastika? 6 Subliminal Messages? 7 Islam section removed 8 Among The Anime Community 9 Originality Section 10 Subjects not touched upon (much) 11 Satanic? 12 untrue

[edit] Unnecessary Comments Regarding Protestantism

In the religion/christianity section the author makes the following statement:

"Protestants seemed to have been angry because it took them hundreds of years to do what Pokemon did in a few years. Since they are mostly conservative, they are also afraid that the Japanese will overrun these crackers' businesses. It looks more like a front advocating white nationalism rather than fighting against Satanism."

This is quite obviously not impartial and neutral and as utterly brilliant and whoever wrote this is it is unfounded and pretty pethetic. Just sounding off something you heard Dennis Miller say when your mummy let you stay up late isnt really appropriate for wikipedia.

I cant actualy think of any way to De-hatethe statement so I'm just going to remove it for now.

[edit] Violence

Something should be added about that Pokemon "duels" might encourage using violence by kids as a way of achivving your goals. In some ways Pokemon duels are similar to some cruel sports like for example Dog fighting. Mieciu K 10:23, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Unless people have complained about it, there is no reason to. Heh, this article is already on the brink of the absurd.

So are most of the people who've made mountains out of molehills... the blackface allegations I find hilarious, because she was so ready to ASSUME that someone in a major corperation was delibrately using racist images, that she never looked into the other potential reasons for the character's design. As someone who has read GALS!, a manga about kogals, I immediately thought "Whoa! Ganguro kogal!" when I saw the original black-skinned Jynx picture (mind you, even in GALS!, the ganguro kogals look a little blackfacey, or greyfacey more like since they're nowhere near actual black and the manga's in black and white to begin with, but that really is the way the trend has their tan lines, judging from the photos I've seen. Looks weird, yeah, but that's the fashion). Sometimes my country is so oblivious to the concept that other cultures might have differing pop cultural images, it astounds me. Of course, then again, one could argue that the Japanese exported their very Japanese product without particularly doing much research, but still.

As for the Satanism allegations, I am almost embarassed to admit that, yes, I have seen people claim these kinds of idiotic things about Pokemon. One woman was even all alarmed after hearing her children imitating a Bulbasaur while playing the TCG, not realizing that that grunty sound is merely the sound a Bulbasaur makes in the dub of the TV series (she didn't ask her kids about it, either, but rather immediately assumed the worst. *snerk!*). She had this website with an essay, which was all like "keep it away from your kids" and panicky and everything. Big long essay that even I, as a non-Pokemon-fan, found ridiculous. Such as saying the one psychic Pokemon had a "Satanic star", which wasn't a Satanic pentacle at all (those are upside-down five-pointed stars), but in actuality a six-pointed star similar to the Star of David, a Jewish symbol, not Satanic (making it even funnier is the fact that all manner of Western star emblems - five-pointed, six-pointed, Satanic pentacles - are often used indiscrimently in Japanese anime and manga to represent ANY kind of supernatural or magical symbol, for instance, as in the fantasy anime The Slayers, in scenes where it was on the signage for a non-evil magic supplies shop). My country seems proud to be the causer of the most "WTF?" expressions and forehead-smackings around lately. Seriously.

Sidenote - like anything that features "duels", of course there have been allegations that they promote violence. Just not as many as there were for say, Power Rangers. I'm also surprised no one's ever thought to complain about perceived animal abuse, considering the way they're pitted against each other, but I guess it's outweighed by the moralistic "take care of your Pokemon" message they keep putting in most of the episodes I've actually seen. Runa27 19:49, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I've heard complaints about the violence and dueling of Pokemon, including http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/pokemon.html ("Pokemon teaches the following concepts/philosophies that are counter to Christianity: 1. Violence as a means of obtaining power."), http://www.fradical.com/Feeding_their_fears.htm (" Although violence in cartoons has always existed, says Lefebvre, "notice that in the earliest cartoons, such as Tweetie, the 'good guys,' like Tweetie, used wits and distraction techniques, only resorting to violence when all else failed, but now in Ninja Turtles and Pokemon violence is the first choice for both 'good guys' and 'bad guys.' ""). There are a few others also. Belltower 19:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] My response

Grew up with pokemon TCG and all I can say is LOL! I mean, I saw the similarity when I was a kid, but I didn't think much of it. Plus Jinx was a crappy card. - User:Cyberman

[edit] Poorly named

"Controversy and criticism of Pokémon" is grammatically incorrect. A correct way of putting it would be "Controversy surrounding, and criticism of, Pokémon", but this defies our naming style. I suggest we drop the "Controversy and " at the beginning of the name. Any further suggestions? --Oldak Quill 02:28, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't called that to start with somebody (I don't know who) renamed it —Minun ^Spiderman 13:56, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Well its alright, i've dropped the "Controversy and", cheers —Minun ^Spiderman 13:57, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Swastika?

I don't remember ever seeing a swastika. Was it in the games? Where was this? --Brandon Dilbeck 17:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

It was on one of the cards. Teh Pampas Cat 20:33, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

It was not a swastika. It was a manji. They are different. Tarafuku10, 10 October 2006

Regardless of what the proper term for how it was used was, I don't think Brandon's question was quite answered (and I had the same question reading the article). Where was the symbol used? "One of the cards" isn't a specific enough answer. The cricisim of racism in Pokemon was answered with the very specific example of the original design of Jynx, but, although my main expierience with Pokemon is...dated (last game I seriously played was Gold version, and that was thanks to my little brother who was, and still is, a VERY huge fan of the TV show and games, and it was my job to babysit him at the time), I don't recall ever seeing anything resembling a swastika or manji in the TV show, game, or any of the cards. If it is has been a legitimate criticism or complaint referring to the franchise, a specific example should be mentioned. Right now, the (slightly humourous, in my opinion) examples from extremist Christians are more comprehensible than this one, despite the swastika/manji appearance most likely being a much more serious incident. Regardless, this section should definately be expanded. Irish♣Pearl 23:55, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

The manji was on a Golbat trading card released a long time ago. It has since not been reproduced anywhere outside of Japan. The big deal originated when a young, Jewish boy opened up a new pack of trading cards and thought he saw a Swastika. He showed his dad, and his dad, not knowing about the Manji, made a huge deal about it. Pokemon apologized, explained the situation, and pulled the card from circulation outside of Japan. It was simply another cross-cultural misunderstanding. I hope that this answers your question in enough detail. Cheers, 声援 -- The Hybrid 00:01, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Wow....I don't believe I have EVER gotten a reply that quickly. Thank you, that does completely answer my question! Now we just have to get that into the article, and then I'd assume the whole issue is resolved. Thanks again. Irish♣Pearl 00:04, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The article says some different things, but it is incorrect. I read a CNN.com article on this once, and it would be far more reliable. However, I doubt I will ever find it again. I lost most of the stuff on my favorites list when I switched from AOL to MSN a while ago. You're welcome for the quick response. Peace, 声援 -- The Hybrid 00:09, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I see...it's a shame that the page is lost, but even if we can't find the page again, would it be too harmful to put in the example now given that most of the information in that section is unsourced anyway? At least in hopes that someone who has also read the article still has it in their favorites section and can source it then? Although I suppose that's still unethical...I've been in the situation before, knowing the information but either can't remember or unable to cite the source, and normally do nothing. Well, I suppose that's what the talk page is for anyway. Sorry for the rambling! I'm getting a bit tired (and I tend to ramble when I'm tired), and would be sleeping if not for the fact that I'm procrastinating on finishing a paper. Thanks again! Irish♣Pearl 00:23, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The thing is, there is a source listed. As unremarkable as it is, it takes precedent over what I say I have read before, but can't prove I read before. Depressing, 声援 -- The Hybrid 00:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Dah! I didn't notice that before, actually. That is quite depressing...I don't suppose what you've read could be listed as a seperate incident under the section? Not disproving what's written, but adding different information? Better but not specifically-able-to-be-proven-at-this-moment information? Stretching a bit I know, but the section could use help. Irish♣Pearl 01:22, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

It does need help, but as long as I don't have a source I can't add it. It violates on of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia. Peace, 声援 -- The Hybrid 03:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I found a source: "nintendo to stop making swastika like game cards" and a picture of the card: [1] it verifys everything the section says. Ras Qulec 21:44, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I searched for words in the article and came up with this online version: [2] --Brandon Dilbeck 22:40, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Subliminal Messages?

After reading the section saying if the Pokérap was played backwards, it would reveal a satanic message, I was alarmed, yet sceptical. I then downloaded the song and played it backwards, only to hear gibberish!

It actually said "I Love Satan" very clearly in my opinion; though I'm sure this is just a coincidence. -- THL 23:34, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Really? I am really skeptical that it could say "I love Satan" when played backwards. I wonder what is the probablity that those four syllables could appear in that order. Well, Pokémon doesn't promote satanism as I do not understand how. I think you're joking here.

For example let's look at this website (the God and "Science" one)

"Other Pokemons "evolve" through the use of "stones" (thunder, water, moon, fire, and leaf) which are items used to summon powers (the origin of these "powers" is not stated, but they are not from God)."

Well, in the Pokémon world, those stones are as natural as gasoline. I have never heard anyone invoking Satan in the anime. Well, I guess he thinks organic synthesis is Satanic too; we are able to invoke the powers of chemistry to find drugs that are able to cure cancer such as taxol. Since this power to inhibit cancer doesn't come from God, but from the respectable science of organic chemistry, I guess he thinks organic chemistry is satanic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by LinkinPark (talk • contribs) .

First, I should point out that the article on Backmasking mentions that pairs of syllables can easily sound like the word "Satan" when played backwards. Now I've gone to that site and must admit that I don't at all hear the words "I love Satan". People would really have to be pushing it to make that connection. --Brandon Dilbeck 03:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I've heard it played backwards on the website this article links to. It clearly says "I love Satan" four times in a row. Note, the song says either the same thing or very similar things in a row. I don't think Pokémon encourages Satanism. The creator is Buddhist! I don't need convincing of your side because I only believe what I can see myself, and I have seen proof for the creator's Buddhism. As for thinking I'm joking, I do not have a sense of humor; never have, never will. -- THL 01:49, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I am still skeptical though. Are you saying you heard it say "I love Satan" four times in a row when you played it, or you heard it once each time you played it four times. If it is the former, I find it hard to believe that those syllables would be heard that way as 16 syllables are needed for it to say "I love Satan" 4 times in a row. Well, I think you are lying when you said you do not have a sense of humor. You laughed when the notion of Misty being a cannibal was linked to transubstantiation.

4.232.171.177 03:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I did hear it, and I agree with Brandon that I cannot hear the words "I love Satan". All I heard was gibberish. Well, at best this is extremely subjective issue. 4.232.171.177 04:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I heard it clearly at least 3 times in a row, but the voice sounded kind of decomposed; probably not the best choice of word but... Anyway, I have a sense of humor about my past mistakes; that is how I live with myself everyday. I lack one about most other things, however. -- THL 04:30, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Stuff played backwards is always gibberish, but that doesn't mean you can't hear something in it with enough imagination or if you know what it's supposed to "say". So it's no wonder some people can "hear" it and some not, but the backwards message is hardly "really" there even by coincidence. The forward message is sinister enough, anyway. It might as well be honest and say "you gotta buy 'em all". Ville V. Kokko 16:46, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

It is kind of like this, "I (extended) love Satan-love Satan, I (extended) love Satan-love Satan. The Satan part sounds higher than the I and love. -- THL 07:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC) I watch pokemon and it just says gotta catch em all I think someone made that webside to trick you all Sonicrules2 15:34, 3 March 2007 (UTC)Sonicrules×trust me

[edit] Islam section removed

IP 70.24.207.57 removed this section, calling it "Hopelessly muddled". If anyone is able to clean up this section and restore it to the article, please do so. I myself don't know enough to expand it myself. --Brandon Dilbeck 17:00, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

===Islam===
Pokémon has only belatedly made its way to the Islamic world, at this point, in [[Saudi Arabia]].{{fact}} The driving point behind this factor is the belief that the trading card game promotes [[gambling]] with cards.{{fact}} In most moderate Islamic countries, such as [[Turkey]] and [[Pakistan]], it poses no threat.{{fact}} In [[Iran]], for example, the game is relatively popular, and the Pokémon logo and characters are widely recognizable in much of the Muslim world.

<!-- This paragraph no longer makes sense without information as to what “Pokémon” was alleged to mean.

Despite assurances from the Nintendo that the trade name stands for “Pocket Monsters,” the video games and related items have been stripped from store shelves in Saudi Arabia and turned away at ports. Schools in Saudi Arabia have set up collection points to turn in clothing decorated with Pokémon figures.

-->A fatwa, or religious edict, issued by a Saudi sheik urges all Muslims to beware of the game, noting that most of the cards bear "six-pointed stars, a symbol of international [[Zionism]] and the state of [[Israel]]".<ref> "[http://web.archive.org/web/20040707073452/http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1249820.stm Saudis to Stamp Out Pokémon]", ''BBC News'' ([[Waybacked]]).</ref> This refers to the Colorless Energy symbol.  In many Muslim countries, the colorless energy symbol is replaced with a less-controversial five-pointed star.

However, the fatwa is very rarely enforced and it is still quite easy to buy Pokémon video games and products.

[edit] Among The Anime Community

Should the page also mention the criticism the anime recieved from many members of the Anime community? I've met a huge majority who consider Pokemon a disgrace to Anime. Godaiger

Do you have a reliable source for that claim? Highway ^{Grammar Enforcer!} 07:24, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Originality Section

This is a fact, and well known among toy experts and anime fans who grew up in the 80s especially in Japan and Hong Kong. I don't know why it is getting deleted. If someone wants to challenge the idea for a good reason, feel free. I can understand the Pokemon fan base is relatively young and were probably not born in the 80s, but facts is facts. Plawres Sanshiro did it first with robots. Benjwong 14:13, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing, but there needs to be sources for the info in the article. If you could find some sources, that'd be great. --Brandon Dilbeck 18:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a book reference. I don't think some web forum reference would even cut it. Benjwong 14:47, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

i feel that this section is leaning to much tord calling pokemon un origanal, it shoulld be change to have more nutral wording.((User:HHS.student))

[edit] Subjects not touched upon (much)

Though the parallels to cockfighting are mentioned both here and in the shortened criticism section on the main article, there is no rebuttal mentioning the battling of beetles. I have heard many times the story that Satoshi Tajiri was inspired, in part, by a pastime kids have in Japan. They collect large beetles, and battle them. From Rhinoceros beetle:

Rhinoceros beetles are popular children's pets in Asia. They are clean, easy to maintain, and safe to handle. In Asian countries, male beetles are also used for gambling fights since they naturally compete for female beetles with the winner knocking the other off a log.

This is a much "nicer" pastime than cockfighting. It is also not original research, though I have forgotten the sources.

Also, when I first heard of Pokemon being criticized by Christian groups, my first thought was their similarity to familiars, their elemental characteristics, and the fact that Pokemon trainers "summon" them like demons, or more accurately, like genies from lamps (or pokeballs. However, since I haven't heard those criticisms from other sources, I think of it as original research. --BlueNight 08:06, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

The latter part of you statement is touched upon in the article. As for the part about the beetle fighting, the people who originally said it were jumping to conclusions. Satoshi Tajiri said that he was inspired by his love of collecting insects; at no time did he mention beetle fighting. The people were simply jumping to conclusions. -- THL^CCD 08:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Satanic?

How does the fact that it was made in japan and thier religions have buddhism make the show satanic?

Some Christian groups consider all other religions sinful, and by extension, satanic. -- THL 05:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Like who? I've never met a christian who thinks that, and I don't think that that should be based on the fact that a few people think other religions are evil. Show me where it says that in a christain gruops teachings.

It's the first of the 10 commandments. "Thou shall not have any other gods before me." Any Christian group that honors the 10 commandments must believe that all other religions are in violation of the first commandment, making them sinful. Sin comes from the devil, so they must be satanic. The second commandment stating that there shouldn't be any idols can be applied in the same way. Also, I am an ex-Christian, and my church of ~10,000 people taught that all other religions were sinful. -- THL 21:58, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was about to say that! You got in right before me! --Brandon Dilbeck 21:59, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry but the Holy Bible isn't a guide for Christians to "smite all non-believers." Remember, it says to love thine enemy. And also, just because one church/denomination says every other religion is wrong, does not mean that the whole mass of Christians believe the same thing.

It says love thine enemies; it does not say that you have to love or respect their beliefs. Also, this article isn't talking about the whole mass of Christians; it is talking about certain fundamentalist Christian denominations who have criticized Pokémon. -- THL 07:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

So then would everything made by someone who isn't christian be considered satanic? That's very stupid.

You are completely misunderstanding this. Commandment #1 says, "Thou shall not have any other gods before me." #2 says, "Thou shall not worship any graven (created) images." It does not say, "If a Christian didn't make this object, then it is evil." -- THL 07:07, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

The article says this "Pokémon was invented in Japan, and the primary religions in Japan are Buddhism and Shintoism." Where does it say anything about having other gods before god? Why does it matter t all where it was made? So anything made in Japan is automatically satanic? Are you stupid? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.135.143.209 (talk • contribs).

If you had done any research at all about Buddhism and Shintoism you would know that their followers honor other gods and/or spirits, and that Buddhists honor images of their religion's founder. Don't come in here calling me, who actually studies what he is talking about before commenting, stupid. Any more uneducated comments from you or anyone else will be ignored. -- THL 01:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

It was wrong of them to call you stupid, but they do make a good point. You said yourself that the ten commandmants don't say that an object is evil just because it was made by a non-christian. I think they were trying to say that although Pokemon came from Japan, where the people worship a religion other than Christianity, that doesn't make Pokemon itself evil. As such, I can see what they're getting at as to not including that reason in the article.

On the other hand, just because the ten commandmants don't call it evil because it was made by a non-christian doesn't change the fact that it might be criticized because of it. This isn't about whether or not Christian doctrine calls an object evil, it's about how people feel about the object. Christians themselves can still criticize Pokemon because of it being made by a non-christian. Because of this, the reason should be kept. Although, it might be wise to edit it to say that christians dislike Pokemon due to enmity towards the people that made it, not due to what doctrine says. Ibm2431 11:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

They don't really care about the people. They say that it is satanic because of things in the actual games and anime, as well as Evolution being a part of it. The things mentioned before are all in the article, so I don't feel the need to list them all here as it is a long list. Cheers, -- The Hybrid 11:41, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

If they don't care about the actual people then why put it there? What does buddhism and the other religion have to do with evolution?

As far as I can see it isn't mentioned under Christianity. I was just answering these questions because they were being asked. There isn't anything under the Christianity section about Buddhism. -- The Hybrid 06:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] untrue

This whole is a lie to stop kids from watching this great show —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sonicrules2 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

I'm sure some people have used arguments mentioned in the article to convince people to ban the show; this article is to explain some of the biggest and most noteworthy complaints about the Pokémon franchise and not trying to push these views on readers. --Brandon Dilbeck 19:04, 10 March 2007 (UTC)