Talk:Entheogen
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[edit] Use of Cannabis in Christianity
The article currently contains this passage:
But what is essential in Christianity is the concept of "The Anointed" or Christ or Messiah, for the priests at first, Levites first of all, instated by Moses himself, and then later for Kings, particularly Saul, David and Solomon, and of course Prophets. This anointing with the "holy chrism" is a practice that must not be open to laymen. The recipe of this "chrism" is given in Exodus 30:22-33 and it contains one element known has "Kanah bosm", that is to say the blooms of a plant that is today identified as cannabis. One reference is essential in that field, even if there are a few mistakes or fuzzy elements in it: Chris Bennett and Neil McQueen, "Cannabis and the Christ: Jesus used Marijuana" on http://www.cannabisculture.com/backissues/cc11/christ.html. We are then no longer dealing with a metaphor like the apple in the Garden of Eden but with a real phenomenon that can be studied in details. —Apollodorus 1.34-38. 193.249.86.190 16:20, 12 November 2006 (UTC) Dr Jacques COULARDEAU, Université Paris Dauphine & Université Paris 1 Panthéon Sorbonne
A quick net search reveals that there's plenty of noise about this theory, but most of it has been propagated by extremely pro-marijuana sources. There may indeed exist a credible and objective source for this concept buried beneath the mountains of High Times and alt.cannabis articles out there, but the link cited is NOT adequate, and the text of the entry is anything but lucid. At the very least it should be rewritten, and until a credible source for the entry can be cited, it should probably be removed. Nbiehl 03:05, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
- As just an idle browser on this page, I must agree that the entire section related to Christianity is baffling to me and, to be honest, reads like it was written by somebody under the influence. What exactly do Gilgamesh and Greek myth have to do with the possibility of entheogen use in Christian myth or history? The reference article goes a lot further than "fuzzy elements"; I don't find it readable in the least. I agree that this section should be removed if it's not going to be rewritten. 65.25.107.20 07:52, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
User 217.158.203.77 says ("the term 'entheogen' is normally associated with advocates of psychoactive drugs") and that ("most of these substances are today considered to be illegal in most jurisdictions.")
Two things:
1. Something isn't "considered illegal." It either is illegal or it is not. A separate section on the law in regard to some of these substances would be appropriate; write one if you wish.
2. To pigeonhole the term with what is a thinly veiled point of view (that the term is associated with "advocates of psychoactive drugs") is not appropriate in an objective source.
- OK. I buy your reasoning. Reverting myself (which recreated the text you deleted). --mav
For the record, there are many grey areas in the legal system with regards to entheogens. Much has to do with intent vs. actual legality of the substance or plant. There are quite a number of plants containing technically illegal substances that grow in people's back yards. One cannot be held responsible for every weed and mushroom that grows untended on their property. Likewise there are plants and mushrooms that are quite intoxicating, but fully legal to possess. Consumption for the purposes of intoxication is a grey area for some of these substances, but you're not likely to get in any serious trouble for ingesting them. Lastly, in a country such as the USA, the federal and state governments cannot agree on the laws for certain drugs -- i.e. cannabis. --Thoric 05:42, 20 December 2005
[edit] Broad sense of term
A quick note to justify my edit, in case Wetman is wondering... The strict and broad senses of the term were indeed defined in the original Ruck et al article, so it is not accurate to denigrate the broad use of the term as a euphemistic creation of pop culture. Use of the term in the broad sense by certain subcultures has indeed by criticised on those lines but IMO Ruck et al are as much to blame as anyone else for that. I hope I have use NPOV in my edit but if you disagree let's try to find a middle (middler?!) ground. Rkundalini 15:08, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
My recent edit can be further refined, I'm sure. But what does the following bit of case-pleading have to do directly with entheogen?: Non-religious drug use modalities ranging from spiritual to recreational to hedonistic, each subject to some degree of social disapproval, have all been defended as the legitimate exercising of civil liberties, including freedom of thought. (All sentences containing the words "modalities" or "paradigm" should be subjected to scrutiny.) Wetman 17:56, 17 May 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I have attempted a further refinement. Firstly, since Ruck et al themselves defined the broader sense, I removed your description of the use of this sense as "casual", and an aspect of "pop culture" (which is inaccurate and seemingly used with the intent to disparage). Secondly, your advice to the reader to keep the controversy over the meaning of the word separate from the taboos regarding secular use of hallucinogenic drugs seems to me to be partisan to the particular angle of criticism that I have labelled in the most recent edit as the "pragmatic" objection. I have removed this advice for NPOV, and for clarity have given the pragmatic objection separate treatment before going on to ideological objections related to taboo. (i.e. I have applied your advice and refrained from explicitely communicating it to the reader). Also I moved the "bit of case-pleading" to hallucinogenic drug, since it is a relevant social aspect of hallucinogenic drug use, but in line with the focus of entheogen on the strict sense of the term, belongs in hallucinogenic drug. ... hopefully we are getting close now! Rkundalini 15:54, 18 May 2004 (UTC)
I noticed there's no mention of _alcohol_ as an entheogen on the article, is there a reason?
- There is a bit of discussion of wine in the classical mythology section. In terms of actual current or historical use of alcohol, the vast majority of use is not as an entheogen, ie vision-producing substance used to occasion spiritual or mystical experience. I would think even the use of wine in religious contexts by Christian churches is also not really "entheogenesis", since it only plays a symbolic rather than pharmacological role (i.e. it doesn't produce the experience). All that said, in the back of my head are two thoughts. One, I thought I remembered hearing of tibetan or nepalese shamanic use of alcohol, but I didn't put this in the entry as I couldn't find any references on the topic. Two, probably some mystics, saints and perhaps even monks (Christian and perhaps other relgions too) have used alcohol to facilitate mystical experience. I haven't got around to looking into this yet. It would be great you felt like adding info on these two cases (if true), or other cases of use of alcohol as an entheogen... -- Rkundalini 11:10, 9 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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- I tend to agree with you about the usage by Christian churches, however I think many 'western' cultures do use it an as entheogen, for example the role of wine in religious Jewish culture, ie in the holydays of Purim and Passover, plus it's social role in many traditional east-european cultures (not directly related to religion, but certainly ethnic), on my initial comment, I was thinking of it's role within the above Jewish holydays. However, I do not trust my own personal judgement as a source.
- I think drinking a bit of wine doesn't count as entheogenic since spiritual development through intoxication is not a goal -- the article should, however, perhaps mention the practice and explain why this doesn't count. Didn't Maenads in ancient Greece use alcohol as an entheogen? Tuf-Kat 20:21, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
- The term 'wine' used to refer to any intoxicating drink. In ancient times, wines were concocted with all kinds of herbs, some with visionary herbs. We cannot assume that ethanol was the only active ingredient. Alcohol on its own is not considered an entheogen. --Thoric 16:02, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- I think drinking a bit of wine doesn't count as entheogenic since spiritual development through intoxication is not a goal -- the article should, however, perhaps mention the practice and explain why this doesn't count. Didn't Maenads in ancient Greece use alcohol as an entheogen? Tuf-Kat 20:21, Jun 9, 2004 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with you about the usage by Christian churches, however I think many 'western' cultures do use it an as entheogen, for example the role of wine in religious Jewish culture, ie in the holydays of Purim and Passover, plus it's social role in many traditional east-european cultures (not directly related to religion, but certainly ethnic), on my initial comment, I was thinking of it's role within the above Jewish holydays. However, I do not trust my own personal judgement as a source.
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- "Mindful drinking", when used by a pracitioner who has developed basic Hinayana training, is said to be a "tool for loosening the subtle clinging of ego", to quote this article. It goes on to describes the Vajrayana drinking practices in some detail. Thought it might be relevant. I have also heard that Steiner wrote about alcohol as a(n antiquated) means of bringing the spirit down to earth. FJ, May 25, 2006
These plants were used, among other things, for the manufacture of "flying ointments". This is a jumble of some vague claim made in some ignorant indictment of a witch, is it? A very odd statement of fact, for the 21st century. Wetman 01:31, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
- This was some text moved over from hallucinogenic drug if I remember correctly. I agree it could be made more precise and npov (it has been suggested that/it is commonly accepted that/whatever). I do think this very notion has been taken seriously in serious scholarship although some checking ought to be done before saying so. Oh by the way you did notice that flying ointments is in quotes, right? Perhaps this should be qualified as 'probably psychoactive preparations known as "flying ointments"'. Rkundalini 09:38, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
[edit] Objections to the broad sense of the term
I have deleted the newly added point-form list of objections to the broad use of the term because IMO it is more difficult to follow, repeats itself, and misses essential information. I think this is too complex a topic to extoll in point form. An accurate represention would be a kind of nested point-counterpoint tree, which is a mess (just have a look at Arguments for and against drug prohibition!) I have pasted back in the original text that was arrived at after a tortuous iterative process to arrive at consensus. -- Rkundalini 03:35, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
That makes sense, Rkundalini. I had concerns that I'd like to see addressed in the current version. My main impression of the existing text when I first read this article was, I couldnt understand it at first. The wording was too terse. I've tried to fix this a 2nd time, but this time without radical reformatting. We can simplify. A quick look at DIFF will show I havent changed much; I think it reads better now.
There were 3 specific corrections Ive added after some thought, because to my mind they did present a visible problem.
- "Use of the strict sense of the word has therefore arisen not only amongst religious entheogen users, but also by other people who wish to practice religious tolerance... " It's not just people who wish to practice religious tolerance who have a problem with the term, so this ending needs to be be changed so it doesn't just highlight one of the several groups who may think that. For simplicity, I have changed it to "spiritual or religious tolerance".
- "The use of the root theos in a term describing non-religious drug use can be criticised as a form of taboo deformation". We mention "theos" twice. I've combined the two references; it's bad copyform to return to it a second time in passing after leaving it, and it made the following paragraph read badly too.
- Added back "use" section, after "terminology"; "use" is a legitimate topic in this article. Exactly as the article says, some people object to "everything except religion" being classified under "hallucinogenic drug". Religious people are not the only ones to use them, that needs to be said and given some space, even if it is not the core focus of the article and it merely says "some entheogens have a tradition, others dont, see article X".
I've tried to fix these things without major editing to the actual wording, as discussed above by Rkundalini.
FT2 10:03, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Use of entheogens
The following text was removed. As a way of avoiding having general information on these subtances spread among three or more articles, it was decided some time ago to make hallucinogenic drug the home of general information, and to make entheogen and psychedelic (and any other terms that crop up in future) specific to the stricter interpretations of these terms, which are not simply synonymous with use of any of these substances in any old context. Text of a general nature such as the following belongs in the hallucinogenic drug entry, if it something similar is not already there. Removed text:
- Naturally occurring enthegens such as Datura were, for the most part, discovered and used by older cultures, as part of their spiritual and religious life, as plants and agents which were respected, or in some cases revered. By contrast, artificial and modern entheogens, such as LSD, never had a tradition of religious use.
- Currently entheogens are used in three principle ways: as part of established traditions and religions, secularly for personal spiritual development, and secularly in a manner similar to recreational drugs. A lesser use of entheogens for medical and therapeutic use is no longer pursued due to legislative and cultural objections to such uses.
- The word Psychonaut has been coined in recent years to describe people who deliberately take entheogens in order to explore their psyche with a view to personal growth.
Apart from making controversial use of entheogen as a casual synonym for hallucinogen/psychedelic, there are also other problems with the text. The second sentence is a tautology. The fourth sentence is false and also apparently makes a subjective value judgement. The final sentence (and IMO the Psychonaut entry) belongs in wiktionary. --Rkundalini 02:36, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- There is a problem with that, worth discussing. The article acknowledges that there is a broad, and a strict use of the term. It acknowledges that the categorisation of non-traditional use as "hallucinogens" is felt to be objectionable to some users of entheogens, and I can see that classifying all non-religious use would be POV in this context. I understand it is a previous decision, but the inconsistency of an article that states it is an acknowledged legitimate meaning of the word and calling it hallucinogens may offend, only to immediately link to hallucinogens, bothers me. It may be POV to describe such use as entheogens, but the problem (as the article points out) is, its equally POV not to describe them as such.
- If I was considering it from scratch I'd probably vote for either entheogen to include both uses, or a separate article "Entheogen (non-traditional use)". Can we discuss this issue further below, because this contradiction between what the article says and how it links, looks inconsistent, takes a POV in the hallucinogen/entheogen terminology debate, and bothers me. FT2 18:51, Jan 17, 2005 (UTC)
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- I can see your point but I'm not sure how to improve the situation. Let me outline what I see as the options and you can either advocate one or point out my folly and propose a superior alternative. First and foremost there should be one single page describing the basic existence, history, chemistry, pharmacology etc of these substances. It is really confusing and counterproductive to have information about them scattered about several different pages, as was previously the case with hallucinogenic drug, entheogen and psychedelic. Those three terms have different meanings but there is a very broad overlap which should be covered in a central article, with satellite articles covering nuances specific to each term individually. Would you agree with this? Now, the options are, either choose one of the three as the central article, and make the other two side articles, or, make up a new and completely NPOV term for describing these drugs and make that the central article, with two or three satellite articles. The problem with the latter approach is that it can't be a completely new word, it is pointless having encyclopedia articles named using terms no-one has ever heard of before. Much as I'd love to leave the whole issue behind once and for all by coining a nonsense term (anyone for a gram of bloogeyshum?), I don't think this would be very popular. As for the former approach, any choice of one of those three is going to offend some segment of our readership. Personally I would prefer "psychedelic" as the central term as IMO it strides a kind of middle ground, but nevertheless it would still draw criticism, particularly from the "hallucinogen" camp... As it happened, "hallucinogen" is more widespread in scientific, anthropological and medical literature, and the Hallucinogenic drug entry was more established, so this choice won by default. If you have a better suggestion (other than switching to one of the other POV terms, or spreading and duplicating information between them) I'd love to hear it. P.S. entheogen is looking good after the latest round of edits! -- Rkundalini 00:22, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- Quick answers:
- Yes, I would broadly agree, pointlessly duplicated material should be avoided where it can be summarised (or referred to a main article). I think we're seeing the issue similarly. So I'd like to look at those 3 articles tomorrow and think about the rest of your question carefully. In the meantime I have a question of definition that will clarify an aspect of the debate for me.
- If a substance like Datura is used socially as a way to have a wild trip with friends, is it considered an "entheogen"? In other words, is entheogen a word which either applies to a substance or not, depending on its history of religious or shamanic use? Is it a correct use of language to say "Datura IS an entheogen" [as definition/identity], as a definitive statement? Or does it follow from its use circumstance by circumstance, so there will be times datura is an entheogen and times it is not? What about LSD, that has no history (if we exclude modern cults) of religious use? Is that an entheogen always / sometimes / never?
- If you can have a go at clarifying those, or highlight the differing views and their internal logic, it would help. FT2 09:21, Jan 18, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Objections to the 'Hallucinogenic' Reference
It's my understanding from reading Jonathan Ott's interpretation of both the broad and strict meanings of the word Entheogen, that there is no requirement for the plant or drug concerned to actually be 'hallucinogenic'. "Creating the divine within" in no way implies that hallucinations are involved. Also, many plants that are used by 'traditional' societies around the world are clearly considered entheogenic if that use is connected with non-medical shamanic-type use, but many of these plants would fall far short of the definition 'hallucinogenic'. Pappa 10:05, Apr 12, 2005 (BST)
- Wine and the eucharistic wafer for instance. Edit the article to make it more accurate on this point. --Wetman 11:28, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- If this is the case, it should be explicitely noted as Ott's interpretation. The original Ruck et al paper quite clearly states that in both senses of the word, it must be a "vision-producing", i.e. hallucinogenic. This is quoted in the article. If people have subsequently chosen to apply different meanings to the word, that may be noteworthy but doesn't change the basic/original definition. Some people use the term "placebo entheogen" to refer to e.g. the eucharist. -- Rkundalini 02:19, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- Pappa: I did not get the impression that Ott considered anything 'enthogenic' that did not have at least some psychoactive effect, and for the most part non-hallucinogenic psychoactives were excluded as far as I could tell. I could be missing something, so please site a reference other than conjecture based on your personal interpretation of the meaning of, "creating the divine within". A completely inert substance would only have a placebo effect, and is more in the realm of psychology than pharmacology. --Thoric 22:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
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- According to Ott (page 88 of his Angel's Dictionary) the literal definition of 'entheogen' is 'becoming divine within', which was the initial suggestion by Ruck et al in 1976. Unfortunately, the 'divine within' can not be generated but revealed, in my opinion. The purpose of creating this new term was to replace the cultural baggage that had accumulated with the term 'psychedelic', which describes a manifestation of the divine within, not a generation of a 'divine within' (by taking an exogenous substance). The Greek root 'gennan' denotes the generation or fabrication of something, while the Greek root 'delos' (in psyche-delic) denotes a process of revelation or manifestation of something extant. In other words, the later implies that the 'divine within' is already there, while the former implies that it can come from without; i.e. from a plant, a chemical, a cracker or some other exogenous substance. Jcc 30 June 06.
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- The original draft of the definition (as shown further down in this talk page) states that the term entheogen is "used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body.". Based on this original definition (and regardless of what opinion others may have), an entheogen is a substance that is either a god itself, or that its ingestion causes a god to enter one's body. This definition is based on the beliefs of the shamans who have been using them for millenia. While I share your belief that entheogens reveal the God within as opposed to create, that is not the original definition. --Thoric 18:06, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] merge
merged in entheogens, from the talk page:
redirected to entheogen, as there is no reason for there to be two articles and the other entry has all the info given here.--Heah 16:03, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
--Heah 16:20, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Indeed, very strange that that page existed in the first place. Rkundalini 06:48, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- That happens quite a bit. All articles should be singular without a good reason not to, but people often create plural articles without knowing. It's a good idea to always add a redirect for plurals. Tuf-Kat 21:46, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Egyptian use of Blue Lotus question.
In the section on entheogens in Africa there is a reference to the blue lotus in Egyptian history... "A famous entheogen of ancient Egypt is the Blue Lotus (Nymphaea caerulea)." Was the Blue Lotus use commonly known amonst egyptologists and historians or is this a recent 'rediscovery' of its use as an entheogen? Mike Logghe 16:02, Jun 6, 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Can this recent edit be re-edited to be encyclopedic?
- "Some proponents of the entheogenic truth have realized [or been revealed to] the significance of great biblical finds in the ancient Levitical texts of the Torah. The Book of Exodus points in a direction that deserves some attention. Chapter 16 defines a small round substance or crust (cap?) that grows in a pattern like hoarfrost (stem?), which melts in the sun, tastes of honey (preservative), comes when the dew lifts, and will be a proving factor as to wether we will walk in Truth. Somehow it is white and flakey (crushed stem) and like corriander seed (cap?). Upon critical inspection manna seems to be none other than the peace offering of the hippies Psilocybe Cubensis. Also the name of The Savior in the language he spoke, Yeshua, points in this direction in several ways. Firstly there is seven tops. The number seven is found in the text of The Bible more than any other number and according to Three Pillars of Zen [zen being the number seven in Hebrew! See Psalm 119.] The seventh state of consciousness (which even by definition is trippy) is in fact manas. Coincidence? Not on Gods time."
wow. I don't think it can. This wreaks of tripper-epiphany. Let's try and keep these rants out of the encyclopedia people, unless you want to write an article in which you, in an appropriate fashion, summarize someone elses rant (i.e. a published theory) and not present it as...this. Shaggorama 21:07, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] NPOV
Clearly, at least the majority of this article was written by people who support the use of hallucinogenic drugs, and probably use them frequently for "psychonautical" purposes. Ok, that is unavoidable; the wikipedia functions because the articles are written by individuals who find the subject matter itneresting, so will invest themselves in the article. But the problem is that ONLY these people have even heard this word; the average, non-tripper has never even heard this word before and will iklely have no reason to look it up in wikipedia, and so the article is being written from a very minority perspective. Let's be objective here people. The majority of western society does not infact condone the use of hallucinogenic drugs, but this article seems to present the opinion that most people do and should. Furthermore, much of the information in this article seems to have been come across in....let's say a priori research. Let's see some REAL anthropological citations and less positing of coincidence and semblances of fact. As it is currently being presented, this article is illigitimizing itself. if you all want your opinions to be taken seriously when read, you should present them in a less tripped out fashion.
Some Specifics (The accounts I am about to give will not be of a NPOV. I am going to instead represent the unrepresented face of this article in attacking it to show why it does not represent a NPOV.):
- "The use of entheogens in human cultures is generally ubiquitous throughout recorded history, including Christian society if the Eucharist is counted, and including Islamic society if Sufi practices are counted. The number of entheogen-using cultures is therefore very large."
the -just because drug use exists in a culture doesn't mean you can label the entire culture as supportive of drug use. Eucharist and Sufi can be labelled specifically in this cohttp://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Entheogen&action=edit§ion=8ntext (although I seriously doubt sufi's as a whole can be labeled. i imagine only specific sects or practices can, considering the islamic opinion on drug use in general. furthermore, i don't even know what eucharist is, but the moral majority certainly doesn' approve of drug use, and i consider them, sadly, to be fairly representative of american christianity as a whole).
- "Since 1979, when the term was proposed, its use has become widespread. In particular, the word fills a vacuum for those users of entheogens who feel that the term "hallucinogen", which remains common in medical, chemical and anthropological literature, denigrates their experience and the world view in which it is integrated."
-No, this word is far from common usage. It is used, as the second sentence describes, by hallucinogenic drug users who don't like the terms the rest of society uses to describe them.
The last paragraph of terminology and use (as of this date), I feel, best characterizes how this article should look. Please compare its claims to the claims in the rest of the article if you still don't under stand my problems with this article. Shaggorama 21:30, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- This article is fairly well referenced and cited. i don't see any original research. "entheogen" and "hallucinogen" are not interchangable terms; the Eucharist, for instance, is not a hallucinogen, but IS an accepted part of christian practice- every mass for catholics and Episcopalians, and on special holidays for most other protestants. (maybe you should have clicked on it?) It would seem, from the paragraph you selected as being "how this article should look", that your idea of npov is a discussion of how the term is used to cover up what you see as illicit drug use. This term does not cover any usage of hallucinogens, but rather the use of "that which causes (a person) to be in god", or more commonly but not literally translated, something that "creates the divine within"; it is the use of these agents in religious ritual with religious intent, something that does seem to have existed almost everywhere at some point in time. please feel free to fix sentences like "its usage is widespread", when clearly that usage is only widespread among a specific segment of the population and the sentene should reflect that; however, to claim that this is simply about illicit drug use is to miss the point entirely. (sufis, by way, are a "specific sect or practice" of islam.) --Heah talk 23:14, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- I have to say, who cares whether the "majority of western society" condones entheogensis or not? The majority of the public also don't condone cannabilism yet I don't see you objecting to a detailed entry for that. NPOV is about neutrality, it is not about asserting the prejudices of "the majority of western society" or even "the Christian moral majority". WTF?! Ok vent over, now. Regarding your specific objections
- Christians, Sufis etc... I agree that this is poorly phrased and ill-referenced (it was tacked on to the article at a later point than the rest of it and IMO doesn't meet the quality standard established earlier). However I also point out that "ubiquity" need not equate with universal approval. Entries pertaining to these should probably be put in a "Middle East" section. The sufi point can be well referenced (there are numerous historical incidents documenting cannabis use among sufis since ancient times). The Eucharist point is speculation and should be noted as such, and referenced (yes, it is published speculation)
- Regarding "entheogen" not being in common usage, the article makes no such claim. It says that the term has become widespread amongst a specific segment of the population: "religious entheogen users" and "thers who wish to practice spiritual or religious tolerance".
- I am removing the "original research" tag since you have no justification for it. I will also make some improvements to the additions relating to Sufism and the Eucharist. I would also like to remove the NPOV tag soon too but I will wait for more objections to surface.--Russell E 00:27, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Psychonaut
An attempt was made to de-POV the inclusion of the term Psychonaut... but it was a bit long-winded and IMO the mention of the term should be eliminated entirely. If anything it could go in psychedelic since its etymology it refers to a psychological rather than religious view of these experiences. I also removed the newly-added NPOV tag -- I'm assuming it pertained to the Psychonaut paragraph even though no explanation was placed here on the talk page. --Russell E 21:35, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Look directly above this post for discussion of NPOV. Removal of the psychonaut deal works wiwth me, it's not really that pertinent to he article, but the article as a whole exhibits many flaws. leave the NPOV tag for the time being. allow it to be addressed formally here. Shaggorama 21:59, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
- it is up to you to address it formally if you tagged it. what original research is in this article? what exactly is pov? i don't see it. --Heah talk 22:52, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Psychonaut is a broader term than entheogen with a tendency to focus on the intellectual whereas entheogen focuses on the spiritual. There's no reason to remove psychonaut. --Thoric 19:39, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Original research?
Perhaps the following was the reason for the original research tag? I have removed it.. if these points have been published elsewhere then they could be replaced in a more appropriate (new) section, with references and further supporting material.
- The Rig Veda, the first of the Vedas and the oldest known religious document, has many reverent references to the Soma sacrament, and has stories that tie the archetypal image of the serpent to Soma, which teaches man of the divine. This theme was arguably picked up by the author of Genesis to describe the fall of man. In the third chapter of Genesis, a fruit that teaches the knowledge of good and evil (a "plant teacher") was offered to Eve by the serpent.
- In the broadest sense, this was also the first instance of a plant that teaches being recorded in the religious history of man. The idea of a "plant teacher" has since been a staple of indigenous shamanic lore worldwide, and is often acompanied (and even offered) by the serpent in said lore.
--Russell E 01:13, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
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- Yes, they have been widely published by various authors. --Viriditas 02:05, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Definition POV
I've noticed that entheogen has been incorrectly defined. The proper definition should be that of those who proposed the definition, not by playing guessing games or pointing out technicalities in Greek translation:
We, therefore, propose a new term that would be appropriate for describing states of shamanic and ecstatic possession induced by ingestion of mind-altering drugs. In Greek the word entheos means literally "god (theos) within," and was used to describe the condition that follows when one is inspired and possessed by the god that has entered one's body.
This is the proper definition, not the current one of "in God". --Thoric 19:52, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. If it turns out that the Ruck et al interpretation of the greek roots is questionable, then it should remain (seeing the article is about the term as coined by them) but a note added to this effect, rather than outright changing it all as was previously doon.--Russell E 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
- I discovered that this change came in on July 26th, 2004 by user/ip 82.83.144.232. Unfortunately nobody noticed the change in meaning as it came in with detailing on the Greek roots, but the end result was essentially claiming that the original meaning (as coined by Ruck and others) was incorrect. This meaning drift has unfortunately propagated to other sites (www.entheogen.com for example). --Thoric 22:13, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Ulysses
- This discussion is copied from Talk:Psychoactive drug. __meco 12:47, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
It should be emphasized that ever since Ulysses forcibly removed his intoxicted oarmen from the forgetful Island of Lotus Eaters, the graeco-european culture considers mind-modification substances the utmost evil and entirely banned. The consumption of psychoactive drugs is a root denial of the CIVILIZATION as we understand it.
Drugs consumption is associated with barbarism and aboriginal wildness (zulu negro, redskins, asians etc.) whom all were throughly defeated by the material might of our graeco-caucasian civilization. The electricity, computers and Internet that make wikipedia any possible were all invented and realized by the non-drugged white civilization, therefore it is unacceptable to tolerate and euphemise psychoactive drug use on wikipedia. You have to choose between tech civilization and drugs, because tech civilization is the heritage of Ulysses, not the rastas! 195.70.32.136 09:26, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
- Interesting comment(s), but you should note that drug use has been a staple of civilization for all of recorded history, and most certainly for many millenia prior. Nothing is going to change this as can be seen from our modern dependence not only on a large pharmacopeia of pills, but also on copius amounts of coffee, tea, chocolate and alcohol.
- As far as modern technology, much has been inspired from drug use, in fact a large amount of the technology boom in the late 60s and early 70s have roots in psychedelic drugs such as LSD --Thoric 02:57, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
- end copy of discussion
Also read Kary Mullis' autobiography "Dancing Naked in the Mindfield" Great story of his accessing the information that forms the basis of the various genome projects. Altered states are the origins of many of our discoveries now considered mechanical and rational. Met Mullis at the Telluride Mushroom Festival several years ago where other new discoveries have been announced by people under the influence of psychedelics. cf Paul Stamet's examples for example. Great character like the other Nobel laureate I'm privileged to hang with, the physicist Brian Josephson. Check out what he is up to. His research forms the basis of some serious aspects of high speed computing. Mike Logghe 23:30, 30 May 2006 (UTC) "Rumors have circulated that Crick told a colleague that he had taken small doses of the hallucinogenic drug LSD at the time of the discovery of the structure of DNA in order to boost his deductive powers. However, during his life, Crick was ready to sue anyone who put these rumors into print. Crick was a founding member of a group called SOMA, one of many organizations that has tried to prevent criminalization of cannabis use." From an encyclopedia article on Crick. (experts.about.com/e/f/fr/Francis_Crick.htm) Interesting that he and Mullis used similar technologies to enhance their insights on DNA. Again nature spirits educating us ?????? Also see Kekule's account of his dream where he intuited? the ring structure of the benzene molecule, a critical step in our modern "scientific" understanding of biochemistry. Mike Logghe 19:01, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] New section proposal - "Modern Entheogens"
Shouldn't there also be a section detailing drugs which are generally labelled as "recreational", such as LSD or MDMA, but which are sometimes used for spiritual/religious purposes? These chemicals lack the long histories of traditional entheogens (though it should be noted that LSD-like chemicals have been used as entheogens in Europe for millennia) but do now have well-established (albeit young) spiritual traditions and beliefs surrounding them. Both LSD and MDMA were used for purposes of spiritual or personal development years before they became more widely known as "recreational" drugs.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tavdy79 (talk • contribs) 21:14, July 25, 2006 (UTC).
- This is a bit of a fuzzy area. Technically shamans are able to make use of modern entheogens as well as plant entheogens (as has been shown through experiments in providing psilocybin containing capsules to mushroom using shamans), the problem lies in the accepted legitimacy of modern "LSD religions". There is enough difficulty in getting governments to respect aboriginal use of plant entheogens without adding to the confusion by adding more recent substances to the list. Ideally entheogens should be restricted to plants which have been documented to have had long standing spiritual use among aboriginal peoples. Use of modern substances in a similar context should be kept to such articles as Neoshamanism and Psychonaut. --Thoric 22:40, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
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- I agree that although it is easy to see how the above mentioned substances (LSD and MDMA) could be applied in an "entheogenic way", it would be inappropriate to create the proposed section as it falls short of having been described in the reference literature on entheogens. I have applied the term "entheogenic practice" in the article on Autofellatio because I see a likeness in spirit although this "practice" does not involve any substance, however, I would oppose autofellatio being described in the article Entheogen with no references in source literature. __meco 13:34, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
