Talk:Flag of Northern Ireland

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Could somebody explain the significance and history of the "Traditional" flag at the bottom? Thanks! VivaEmilyDavies 23:37, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The traditional flag at the bottom of the page (yellow with a red cross, charged with the red hand) is the provincial flag of Ulster. This is not a legal flag per se, and originated from the banner of arms of the historic province of Ulster - This design is believed to have been derived from the arms of the de Burgos; historic Earls of Ulster.

It is used occassionally by the nationalists, but they usually only display it along with the 3 other provincial flags of Ireland. It is almost always overshadowed by the usage of the Irish Tricolour.

Perhaps the most common usage is by several of the sporting teams that play as a unified island; an example of this flag can be see at [[1]]. It should be noted that the Irish Rugby Football Union choose to use the flag of St. Patrick rather than the flag of the 4 provinces.

I'll clean up the article when I get the time. Hope that helps you out.

JimJim 7th January

Contents 1 New flag for Northern Ireland 2 Surely, Most Commonly Known as the "Ulster Flag"? 3 Revert War 4 New Changes 5 Displaying the flag 6 A better flag icon for Northern Ireland? (from village pump) 7 'Northern Ireland' is better known as Ulster. 8 many foreigners associate [this flag] with Northern Ireland? 9 "Unofficial" 10 Moved comments from the top 11 Northern Ireland Flags Issue 12 Open and closed hand 13 Only one council? 14 Auto Peer Review 15 Merge Northern Ireland flags issue into Flag of Northern Ireland 16 To Resemble the St George's Cross

[edit] New flag for Northern Ireland

Is someone seriously considering the design of a new nonpartisan flag for NI, like they did in South Africa after apartheid? Ricardo monteiro 14:52, 13 May 2005 (UTC)

The Alliance party have be pushing for a new flag for quite a while - "Alliance proposes that new symbols be devised to give expression to Northern Ireland as a region, including a new flag. Greater use should also be made of the European Flag." - http://www.allianceparty.org/showbrief.asp?id=3 - Their proposals include a flag based on the geometrics of the Giant's Causeway.

JimJim

[edit] Surely, Most Commonly Known as the "Ulster Flag"?

Hello, I've came across this page and tried to make some edits as 217.137.160.10 but was reverted by "Lapsed Pacifist" who says NPOV.

Surely, the Northern Ireland Flag is most well known as the "Ulster Flag". CAIN flags I have very rarely heard it referred to as anything else. Perhaps sometimes as the "Red Hand Flag of Ulster" or "Red Hand of Ulster Flag", as in the original verison of the article. This article does not reflect this.

I also find the "According to the UN" bit as completely unnecessary (as JimJim has also mentioned in the edit summaries). It seems like a subtle attempt by an Irish nationalist to imply "The UN says the Union Flag is official, but it's not really".

Jonto 15:18, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

In regards "Ulster Flag" this should be acceptable to integrate as long as their is a provable case that it is more common usage, although it may only be a trivial comment.

Regarding the "According to the UN", yes it is rather anomalous and the responsibility is on someone to prove that this is indeed the case - it is quite a particular and abstract claim. One might have taught that Northern Ireland does not have a flag at all, as the United Kingdom does and it is part thereof, and that would be simply the end of it. Djegan 15:46, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, well this is sort of hard to prove from the internet (and probably trivial like you say), but I did some searches on Google Images to see what I got:

Search for "northern ireland flag" (in quotes) -> 43 red and white flag results

Search for "ulster flag" -> 25 NI red and white results, 11 red and yellow 9-county results (2 from wikipedia). Search for "red hand flag" -> 5 red and white results.

So, to conclude should probably leave the main title as is "Flag of Northern Ireland" as this is the region for which it intends to symbolise, but should also say that "Ulster flag" is a very common name. Jonto 16:34, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Because a lot of people happen to call the Red Hand Flag the "Northern Ireland Flag", doesn't mean it is correct. The majority of people call the British Flag the "Union Jack" quite incorrectly. (Although that's a deeper vexillogical argument). In essence, people tend to call the flag what they want relative to their own bias and ignorance. Going with the CAIN Flag website linked above, I've edited the page to the "Government of Northern Ireland Flag", but would be happy to hear objections.

JimJim 14th July

Hey, JimJim. Looks like we were editing at the same time there! I was making it look the same as the CAIN site too, then wondered why some of my changes were there, but not others! Jonto 19:41, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the name of "Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland" is correct but it seems OK to me as a title for now, as noone seems to know the official name. Someone on the Northern Ireland page (which by the way needs updated, and drastically edited on many other points IMHO) is now calling it the "Royal Ulster Flag". I'm not sure - I haven't heard of this terminology - anyone else know?

Jonto 20:46, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

Generally considered authoritive [2]. Djegan 20:56, 14 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Revert War

Reasons for these [3] edits (being reverted by User:Lapsed Pacifist:

• It's just silly to start off the article with "according to the UN". Has the UN ever said anything one way or the other about the flag of NI? NI is part of the UK, and its flag is the Union Jack. It's a fact, deal with it.
• Second sentence is just grammar and clarity.
• It's more logical to put the info on the history of the "red hand" in the original Ulster flag section, instead of having duplicate information.
• Why is the legend of the red hand being removed? Is there some controversy about this? (I honestly don't know)
• Ulster formed (past tense) one the historic provences of Ireland. Three of them are (present tense) part of the Republic. Six of them (present tense) are NI. It's a fact, deal with it.

--JW1805 04:32, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Ulster is a province of Ireland (present tense). The red hand was in the Northern Ireland flag because it was in the Ulster flag. It was in the Ulster flag because it was the emblem of the O'Neills. If you want to add legends, start on the Uí Néill article. If you wanted to be "logical" the legend would'nt appear where you reverted it. Yes, the UN's stance is that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland. There appears to be a dispute about Northern Ireland's position in the United Kingdom.

Lapsed Pacifist 04:46, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't dispute your first 3 sentences. But, I just think it is logical to have the origin of the red hand in the "Flag of Ulster" section, which describes the original flag. There is a "(see below)" in the first section. It's redundant to then mention that the red hand is from the O'Neils and then later on to say the exact same thing. Also, I think it is completely appropriate to have legends on the origin of the symbolism used in the flag on this page. And finally, you may not recognize that NI is part of the UK, but the fact is that the entity known as "Northern Ireland" uses the Union Jack as its flag. There is no dispute about this, right?--JW1805 05:04, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

There is no dispute that the Union Flag is the official flag of Northern Ireland. This is the stance of the United Nations and by blanking their stance on the issue, you are ignoring the fact that controversy surrounds its continued use, and implying that this does not matter. My objection to the placing of the legend was that it was the only info on the origin of the red hand emblem in that section, and a different explanation was given in the Ulster Flag section.

Lapsed Pacifist 05:39, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I honestly fail to see your point. The very next sentence is: "However, due to the division of the population along religious and political lines, a wide variety of flags can also be seen flying from lamposts and private houses across Northern Ireland." This clearly indicates that it is controversial among some members of the population. And there is the "A New Flag?" section as well.--JW1805 17:16, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

"This is the stance of the United Nations and by blanking their stance on the issue, you are ignoring the fact that controversy surrounds its continued use, and implying that this does not matter"

Can you please:

1. Provide evidence the United Nations has ever issued any form of statement on the flag of Northern Ireland

2. Provide evidence that contradicts what the FOTW.net page on Northern Ireland says, ie. "The Union Jack is the only official flag of Northern Ireland. The well known red hand flag has not been used officially since 1973. Dean McGee, 27 January 2002"

Unless you can do one or both of these, shouldn't the article begin along the same lines as it does presently, in line with the most respected source of information on flags availiable on the internet? Reverting without providing evidence is utterly pointless.

JimJim

Do you think the UN's position is different from that of FOTW?

Lapsed Pacifist 11:18, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

With your edit, the article states that the Union Flag is the official flag and does not give a source.

Lapsed Pacifist 17:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Is there a source on Flag of France, Flag of Indonesia, Flag of Bolivia, or any other Wikipedia article about the flag of any other country? None of them say "according to the UN..." Northern Ireland is part of the UK, a fact which is not in dispute. The flag of the UK is the Union Jack, a fact which is not in dispute. In fact, now that I think about it the first sentence of this article should read something like: "Since it is constituent part of the United Kingdom, the official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag." That would clarify matters a bit, I think. --JW1805 18:21, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I recall quite a long dispute about Northern Ireland's place in the United Kingdom. Quite noisy at times, too. You ought to check it out.

Lapsed Pacifist 19:05, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Well, of course there are disputes on whether NI "should" be in the UK. But, as it currently stands, NI is one of the constituent parts of the UK, and that's just the way it is (as far as I know, this is recognized by all other countries, including the Republic of Ireland). Disagreements on what sector of the NI population wants to stay in the UK or join the ROI are best put in the Northern Ireland page, and there seems to be plenty of that already there. In addition, this page ([[Flag of Northern Ireland) does mention the fact that various symbols are not supported by various sectors of the population. --JW1805 19:31, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The Union Flag remains the "official" flag of Northern Ireland through default, as no permanent political arrangement for the region has been agreed on. The article should reflect this.

Lapsed Pacifist 20:14, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is the permanent political arrangement for the region.
Djegan 20:23, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

That's what they said about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Back then, the official flag of Western Ireland, Eastern Ireland, Southern Ireland and Northern Ireland was the Union Flag.

Lapsed Pacifist 20:56, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

That would be more appropriately "western Ireland, eastern Ireland, southern Ireland and northern Ireland" - dont try to confuse what is been discussed here by the false use of capitalisation. In strict English language "Northern Ireland" is not the same as "northern Ireland" - you tried that one previously and it is very transparent. Djegan 21:08, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist - you are obviously a zealous Irish Republican. This is an encyclopaedia, not a place for Sinn Fein to publish its propaganda. I have spent some time looking through your past edit history (Special:Contributions/Lapsed_Pacifist), and can say that most edits fall very short of encyclopaedic standards, in many cases making subtle edits (and I hate to admit, quite clever in their subtleness)to twist the nature of the truth. There have been many compaints on your talk page. Please return to writing the your biographies of IRA volunteers. (Apologies to everyone else for reducing the debate to a personal level, but I think something needed to be said) Jonto 21:13, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Jonto, I have just checked the edit history you have mentioned and am deeply saddened by Lapsed Pacifist's contributions on the whole. I believe the constant "NPOV" ammendments are just part of his attempt to subtly alter articles in line with his own viewpoint, rather than in line with facts. A case in point would be the change from "by the vicious brutality of Crown forces,but the Wexford rebels were guilty of massacring loyalist civilians at Scullabogue and Wexford bridge." to "characterised by the usual vicious brutality of Crown forces, but the Wexford rebels brought shame on their movement, by killing many loyalist civilians at Scullabogue and Wexford bridge"

Quite aside from this - there should be no need for clarification of Northern Ireland's position as a constituent part of Britain - This is an article on the flags used there, not on the geo-political and geo-ethnic debate on the province. (And if you construe "The Province" to have any form of political bias you are sadly mistaken). I'm not going to change the opening statement - But I'm going to hope we can achieve consensus that the article should simply open "The only official flag of Northern Ireland" or perhaps "The official flag of Northern Ireland" - since it is an undisputable legal fact. The arguments as to the legality of the government et al are wholly irrelevant. Why is there need for such a statement?

JimJim

I don't agree. As the status of the region in question is disputed, there should be a clarification.

Lapsed Pacifist 21:58, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

Lapsed Pacifist - there seems little point in reasoning with you - this is already covered in the second sentence, and really as JimJim has said is nothing to do with this article.

Hi JimJim, Am in complete agreement with you there. I'm sort of new to editing here, but have started to look around wikipedia as a whole and am quite disappointed about the standard of many articles on the site in relation to Ireland / Northern Ireland / Ulster etc. Perhaps Wikipedia is just not good when any political issues become involved - this is very saddening as you say, because anything that is written here gets spread around the internet as if it is fact. I think someone needs to comb through all edits made by this user very carefully (and others) and spot many of the very clever subtleties and tactics that are often employed.

As to the "province" issue, I agree with you too. That's why I wanted to describe the 9 county flag as "The Irish Provincial Flag of Ulster" as the 9 Ulster counties are an Irish province with historical significance. Northern Ireland is also a British province, but this usage seems to have been dismissed on other pages as being "unionist" political bias, despite being factual. I also think the common usage of "Ulster" in the context of Northern Ireland is also disregarded in many cases and seems to be deemed as "offensive". There are ambiguous statements on this page which are not clear as to the flag in question (6 county or 9 county). I tried to add text to clarify which one, but this also seems to get removed by Lapsed Pacifist. Jonto 22:43, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

No, it's not covered in the second line. The first line, as it stands, is akin to saying "the official flag of X (disputed region) is the flag of Y (state in control of the region)." As it is, it's POV.

Lapsed Pacifist 22:57, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

This is not "POV". Please read what Djegan has said. Irish republicans may not like it but that is the way it is.

ARK 2004 survey. Only 22% of people in the survey of Northern Ireland agree with your opinion, and Northern Ireland is democratically within the UK.

Irrespective, this is not the place for this debate.Jonto 23:20, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm familiar with the survey, but I don't see it's relevance. I'm not arguing about what jurisdiction the six counties come under, (or whether or not that came about democratically), I'm contending the region is disputed and that the article should reflect that more fully than it does at present. This is exactly the place for that debate.

Lapsed Pacifist 23:29, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New Changes

I made many new changes to this page, including adding a Union Flag; removing paragraph about the difference between Ulster and NI (which doesn't have anything to do with flags); and some others. I welcome comments. Let the revert war begin! --JW1805 02:11, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Displaying the flag

I brought over some material that was in Flag of Ireland. Should this be kept in this article or not? Or maybe just put a link to it in the other article? --JW1805 21:58, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A better flag icon for Northern Ireland? (from village pump)

(Moved from Village pump (proposals) and archived here Steve block talk 20:25, 30 August 2005 (UTC))

We currently use , an icon based on the 1924 - 1972 Flag of the Government of Northern Ireland. This has not had any official status since 1972, tends to be associated with only one community and is very similar to , the one for England.

I've had a go at putting together some alternatives - this one is influenced by the flax plant logo of the Northern Ireland Assembly and this one based on the flag of the province of Ulster. Many of the uses on Wikipedia are football related and this one Image:IFA tiny.png might be good for those because it's based a celtic cross and similar to the logo of the Irish Football Association that controls soccer in Northern Ireland. Another possibility would be to use an icon from one of the all Ireland flags, St Patrick's saltire or this one . Comments, please. --Cavrdg 13:48, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The flag we currently use is still used at the commonwealth games, most recently at Manchester in 2002. That would suggest to me it is still considered the official flag. Steve block talk 18:32, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The topic of a new flag is mentioned at Flag_of_Northern_Ireland#A_new_flag?. There is no new flag. If there were, it should be in the above-referenced Flag of Northern Ireland. (SEWilco 18:45, 21 August 2005 (UTC))

Several of the choices mentioned create their own problems anyway. Ulster is not coterminous with Northern Ireland, for example - it contains a couple of counties in the RoI. The IFA image is better, but is not used outside sporting contexts. "St Patrick's Saltire" (i.e., the Fitzgerald arms flag) is as contentious as - if not more so than - the old governmental flag. And the Owen Roe O'Neill harp is not normally used for NI alone - especially the flag you've shown, which is one for the province of Leinster (using that for Northern Ireland would be roughly on par with using the flag of Texas to represent Oklahoma). The flax logo is a logo, not a flag - if you're going to that extent, you might as well use what {{NI-geo-stub}} uses - a small map of the six counties. The 1924-72 flag, though no longer official, is still the most widely recognised flag for Northern Ireland and is often regarded as de facto the flag of N.I., so if you want to use a flag, it is still the prime candidate. (For more on the N.I. flag issue, see FOTW's Northern Ireland pages Grutness...wha? 01:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

The official flag of Northern Ireland is the Union Flag, but at occasions such as the Commonwealth Games or in International Football games the NI Flag is still used, and it is better to use it as the current flag on the page. When\If the assembly gets back up and running there will most likley be a new flag designed. But at the moment I think it is best to keep the NI Flag, as it is the most recognisable symbol for Northern Ireland and as Grutness said it has become the de facto flag of the country\provence. / Keith 17:00, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] 'Northern Ireland' is better known as Ulster.

As I am a Paisleyite from New Zealand, I hate the use of the term 'Northern Ireland', which implies that it is part of Ireland, when it is not. It is more commonly known as Ulster, to assert its historical links to the Kingdom of Ulster. Besides, Ulster is a British nation, not a province. - (Aidan Work 05:27, 6 December 2005 (UTC))

Typical. A if it's not part of Ireland, in which you pointed to the geographic article as opposed to the political article, then what body of land is it part of and when was it detached, i don't recall having to cross a bridge or anything on any trips to Newry. Also while it has historic links to Kingdom of Ulster, and in north it is commonly referred to as ulster, it does not contain all of ulster, considering their were three counties that are part of ulster that were left out of the partition and are in the republic and not YourPTR! 13:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)in the UK (Cavan, Donegal, and Monaghan) their for that is partly the reason that it not called Ulster or can not be officially. But being a Paisleyite, you selective use of facts and geography does not surprise me. --Boothy443 | trácht ar 05:52, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Once again, your complete and utter lack of understanding of Ireland comes through. Northern Ireland does not equal Ulster. Ulster is a province consisting of nine historical counties, three of which still exist as legal entities within the Republic of Ireland; one of which is a legal entity within Northern Ireland, five of which are fragmented into other entities within Northern Ireland. They are not, and never have been one in the same thing. When you have a basic understanding of the physical and political geography of the island of Ireland, come back. Until then, don't bother commenting. --Kiand 00:06, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

As with most issues, Work hasn't a clue what he is talking about. Quel surprise!!! FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 00:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Jtdirl, that is definitely a personal attack on my use of the name Ulster instead of 'Northern Ireland' in reference to the British nation. You're forgetting that Articles 2 & 3 have been deleted from the Irish Constitution, so therefore the Republic of Ireland's claim to the British nation of Ulster is as legitimate as Spain's claim to Gibraltar, & Argentina's claim to the Falkland Islands - illegal under international convention! - (Aidan Work 00:44, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

Erm, you're still missing one blindingly obvious problem here. 1/3 of Ulster is in the Republic of Ireland. Always has been, always will be. Nothing else is under question here, only the fact that Ulster and Northern Ireland are not synonyms.

Have you ever been to Nothern Ireland? Doubt it. --Kiand 00:46, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Kiand, I have a friend who comes from Co. Armagh. She is a Paisleyite like me. I know one guy who enjoyed his trip to Belfast. He hated Dublin, as to him, it was a real dump. Besides, Ulster, as in the British nation is very Scots in both culture & language, so therefore, Ulsterpeople aren't Irish. They're British. - (Aidan Work 00:52, 12 December 2005 (UTC))

Erm, will you please drop it about "Ulster". Ulster DOES NOT EQUAL NORTHERN IRELAND. Donegal isn't in Northern Ireland, Monaghan isn't in Northern Ireland, Cavan isn't in Norhern Ireland. I'm from Donegal, I'm -not- British, I -am- Irish, I -am- from Ulster.

You've never been here. You know nothing other than some heresay through third parties, who are clearly as biased as you are. --Kiand 00:56, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Kiand, you are right about an Irish Province of Ulster, which consists of 3 counties. When I am making a reference to Ulster, it is to the British nation that I am referring to. That is the difference. - (Aidan Work 03:05, 13 December 2005 (UTC))

You're refering to something that doesn't exist except in your own deluded little world, then. --Kiand 14:40, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Just to add a wee bit more to this "debate", anyone from Northern Ireland may be British, and may forgo partaking of citizenship of the Republic of Ireland - but they are Irish nonetheless, just as anyone born in the island before 1922 was Irish as well as being British (and the same way someone born in Scotland is Scottish as well as British, etc.) Of course, only a couple decades back, anyone in the Republic could take up British citizenship too, and citizens of the Republic are still treated as British citizens in the UK.

Just as Northern revisionism has tried to equate NI with Ulster, Republican revisionism has tried to erase Ireland's British heritage, and the fact that many proud Irishmen were British. No wonder British people in the North aren't happy to call themselves Irish any longer. One isn't encouraged to be British *and* Irish any longer, by either side.

But while there may be two jurisdictions, and two legal nationalities (citizens, subjects) - there is only one Ireland, one nation. The UK is traditionally made up of four countries, England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland - with the latter now represented by only a fraction of the country. The Unionists in Northern Ireland should be holding onto the Irish-British traditions that the rest of the country forsook, not attempting to pretend it isn't part of Ireland.

One sincerely hopes that the government of the Republic of Ireland not only take back our Republican heritage from the raving looney Republicans in the North (who now pose the gravest threat to democracy in the Republic), but re-establish our British heritage which has been forsaken by both the Republicans and the Unionists. The latter of whom seem to think it perfectly logical to be British and nothing else, or Northern Irish, or latch onto Ulster as the most convenient local heritage - despite it extending further than the six counties.

There should never have been a Flag of Northern Ireland created, it should have continued to use the Flag of St. Patrick that represented the whole British kingdom of Ireland. Any attempt to give Northern Ireland its own identity, rather than see it as the remnant of "British Ireland" was entirely misconceived.

If 1922 had happened in modern times we would have had a far more sophisticated approach than partition. No-one in Donegal, west Tyrone, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Cavan or Monaghan, benefitted one bit from partition. It was a catastrophe for that whole section of the country. Not to mention that if Northern Ireland was a cold house for Catholics, Dublin and the Free State were pretty miserable for southern Unionists (who of course had to suffer seeing DeValera set the fledgling nation back decades with his backward policies and ill-conceived fights with Britain).

zoney ♣ talk 23:12, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Zoney - I'll add my bit in here too. I agree with you on what you are saying that the island would be a whole lot better if in the North people acknowledged their Irish heritage and in the South acknowledged their British heritage.

However, even though some would like to think this, it is very wrong in calling the entire island a "country " or "nation" - it is a geographical island which we share together - part of the problem would be resolved if this could be recognised, removing all political elements, and that:

1. There are separate identities on the island

2. Both identities share common elements of both irish and british heritage

Your comment that "Any attempt to give Northern Ireland its own identity, rather than see it as the remnant of "British Ireland" was entirely misconceived." shows complete ignorance towards the Ulster-Scot identity. This identity is felt very strongly in many parts of the north, and existed long before partition. Northern Ireland gave somewhere for the Ulster-Scots to call theirs and hence Northern Ireland and Ulster are very importantly linked - much more so than Ulster and the 3 Southern counties. Part of our problems in the past has been a failure to recognise this Ulster-scot identity. It is too late to remove the newer Northern Ireland Ulster identity because it is there and is real.

The fact that the southern part even calls itself "Ireland" after the entire geographic island is also a core part of our problems - this is much worse than the "Ulster" terminology. I'm sure that if the Republic had it's official name in English as "Eire" or "Southern Ireland" then many unionists in the north would have no problem in calling themselves Irish and saying they are from Ireland in recognition of the common heritage. The words "Ireland" and "Irish" can either be political or geographic and highly confusing - almost all people in Northern Ireland will call themselves "Irish" geographically - remove the political definition of the word "Irish" or "Ireland", and then we have no problem.

The situation with the word "Ulster" is the same, except that "Ulster" was never made official for Northern Ireland. IMO the usage of the word "Ireland" is much worse than that of "Ulster", but there is nothing that we can do easily about the "Ireland" case because of its confusing official status.

Perhaps Northern Ireland should be renamed "Ulster"/"New Ulster"/"Northern Ulster" (or prob. best just best left as "Northern Ireland") and the Republic as "Eire" or back to "Southern Ireland" if you don't want to change NIs name - then we could both equally describe ourselves as from "Ireland" call ourselves "Irish" without a problem.

As to the flag - if the St. patrick's was kept for NI, then I'm sure that a few in the south would have complained. The st. patrick's cross is the only flag that can really represent the whole island, so for it to be representing only one part would be wrong. I actually think that the Northern Ireland flag should always have featured a diagonal st. patrick's cross in the background instead of an upright cross like st. georges' - that never made sense - perhaps this is a suggestion for the flag of Northern Ireland in the future.

Jonto 22:13, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

On the question of ignoring Ulster-Scots identity, how much less does that fit into an Irish identity than say the eccentric collection of an Irish speaker from Connemara, an Anglicised Dubliner, or a stereotypical Paddy from Kerry? Not to mention the different cultures of the higher classes (who were of course the most British prior to independence) and those street gurriers of incomprehensible local tongues? Any nation is a collection of local identities, some with external influences. However, I am not attempting to deny the fact that the Ulster-Scots identity exists, and has been further built up as a Northern Irish identity (for a slight majority of the people in the region). Just as an over-emphasised Celtic identity was built up by the early Statesmen in Ireland as a deliberate non-British identity for Ireland. Nevertheless, the Ulster-Scots identity is as much to be associated with Ireland as Scotland (and certainly has little to do with the United Kingdom concept of Britishness which is a far more recent idea than the cultural roots of Ulster-Scots).

I guess my essential point is that history continues to be rewritten by all sides, and all are deliberately attempting to create division between those living on this island (ironically, perhaps those wanting a United Ireland have cemented partition the most).

Also ironically, the Dublin administration is as far removed from some parts of the Republic as the London administration is from Northern Ireland. Down here in the South we know that Cork should be the true capital of Ireland :)

zoney ♣ talk 19:39, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I am from Ulster. I am an Irishman. What that ejit is saying about now Irishman in either Ulster or Northern Ireland is complete rubbish. Typical from a follower of Ian Paisley. Stick to the facts and keep the bigotry out of the article.

Quote:"Ulster, as in the British nation is very Scots in both culture & language, so therefore, Ulsterpeople aren't Irish. They're British."

So what will happen to "British" Ulster when Scotland becomes independent?Stevie21:33, 03 November 2006 (UTC)

If you are born in the British Isles you are British it is simple as that. And yes that includes ALL of Ireland, Ireland of course being the 2nd largest island of the British Isles. I hope that the only part of the British Isles that is not politically united with the rest - the 26 counties of the so called Irish Republic - will rejoin the rest of the British Isles politcally again someday. Then we can have real reunification of not only Ireland but of the British Isles. Ireland should be Irish within a British context, the same as Scotland, England and Wales. Those are the 4 main nations that make up the British Isles and all should be united together. To have 26 counties outside of that union and to have one of the nations of that union divided as a result does not make sense particularly in the long term. YourPTR! 13:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I suppose if you are from North America you are American? Zzzzzzzzzz!--Vintagekits 13:39, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

To answer the poster above my first post: Scotland will NEVER become indepedent! We WON'T let the same mistake happen twice! British simply means: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, Manx etc. Those first 4 are the home nations. It is sad that one of them has to be partially outside of the United Kingdom at present and therefore divided, but that doesnt change the fact that Ireland is British at LEAST in a geographical sense (and politically Northern "Ireland" is as well)! As for Canada, that has never been part of the United States but some Canadians do see themselves as American. America can refer to North America, North and South America or the United States of America. British refers to the British Isles and the nations that make up the archipelago that the UK & Southern Ireland share.YourPTR! 13:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] many foreigners associate [this flag] with Northern Ireland?

This implies that very few British or Irish people make the connection. i find this highly unlikely.Glennh70 06:32, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I -think- the implication is that most people outside the UK and Ireland assume the Red Hand Flag is the flag of NI, yet theres quite divided opinions within the UK and Ireland; although nearly everyone here does associate the flag with NI. --Kiand 11:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes - it should be described as the de facto flag due to its majority association - see my comments below.

[edit] "Unofficial"

I see that there are many incidences throughout WP (not actually in this article, but this is best place to discuss) where it is said here that this flag is "unofficial". This is very vague as it is not clear what exact definition is meant by "official". It could be argued that it is "officially" used in the Commonwealth games, but not "officially" used on government property due to the The Flags Regulations (Northern Ireland) act 2000.

If similar logic to that is used throughout WP the Union Jack could also be described as the "unofficial" UK flag as no law has actually been passed to make it the UK flag - see union jack, and scroll down to the "status" section.

Surely it is better to describe it as the "de facto" flag, as opposed to "unofficial" - the term "de facto" implying that there is no law associated with a currently active governmental institution.

Stating that it is unofficial seems to imply a POV that it is not widely recognised as the flag to uniquely represent NI, when it in fact it clearly is, and at present there is no widely known alternative flag associated uniquely with NI. Jonto 22:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

As more evidence of how vexiological "officialness" does not seem to matter in a British context see here Jonto 16:14, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Moved comments from the top

If the flag displayed is the de facto flag of NI, what is the de jure flag? Does NI have no "official" flag?

Also, I'm curious as to why St. George's cross is used rather than St. Patrick's saltire. I understand that this flag is displayed by Unionists as a gesture of allegiance to Britain, but surely the Scots can be described as "Unionists" yet this does not prevent them from flying St. Andrew's saltire rather than St. George's cross (which is of course associated with England in particular, not the whole of the UK).

Finally, can anybody explain to me the significance of the hand? The significance of the positioning of the fingers was explained, but not the actual significance of he hand. Thanks.Loomis51 19:01, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

There is no official flag bar the Union Flag as part of the UK. No idea. The "Red Hand of Ulster", which is also on the flag for the entire province, has to do with a story (or myth? I don't know) about a battle challenge about the first to lay their hand on the land of Ulster, which involved the winner cutting off a hand (hence red from the blood) and throwing it across a river to land on the ground first. I think. Its been a long time since I did history. Like a lot of things to do with Ulster in general its been taken to mean Northern Ireland. --Kiand 19:07, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Kiand for answering two of my questions. I'm still curious about the third. Why is St. George's cross, representing England, used, rather than St. Patrick's saltire. Like I said, from my limited undertstanding, being a Unionist is about allegiance to the UK, not England in particular (although I could be wrong). Also, like I said, (despite the Scottish Nationalists, who, by the way, don't want to separate from the UK and form a republic like in southern Ireland, they simply want the UK to become a more federalist state with specific powers devolved to a Scottish parliament) the Scots by and large can be described as "Unionists" in the sense that they want to remain British, yet they fly St. Andrew's saltire as thir national flag. So basically, why is St. George's cross used in NI's flag?Loomis51 22:14, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, the article actually says that its not based on the George's Cross, its the Ulster flag with the yellow removed to -look- like the George's Cross. --Kiand 22:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Loomis51, the Scottish nationalists _do_ want to separate from the UK. In fact when/if Scotland leaves, there will be no UK. Initially Scotland would probably keep Queen Elizabeth as the head of state, but most nationalists are in favour of a republic. Although you are right in that most Scots Unionists are also happy to fly the Saltire as well as the Union Flag.

[edit] Northern Ireland Flags Issue

There is a proposal that the NI Flags Issue page should be merged with this one. I think it shouldn't as this page refers to the flag of NI, whereas the flags issue page deals with the broader issue, including flags that aren't specific to NI.

The fact that I created the flags issue page also may influence my feelings on the issue, but I do believe, for the reasons given above that things should stay as they are.

NotMuchToSay 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Open and closed hand

I would agree with User:Jonto. The open or closed thumb issue looks like a red herring as the coat of arms of Northern Ireland simply requires a right hand. Here is an open thumb nationalist usage [4]. P.S. An interesting use at [5] --Henrygb 17:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not as clear cut as one way is British and another Irish. I think most people, who actually realise there is a difference, have come to expect the Northern Ireland flag to have a open thumb and Ulster flag to have a closed thumb at least. Also I would suggest that this one is somewhere in between open and closed. Some sort of cross-community hand, if you will.  Keithology  Talk!  18:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is also a Northern Ireland flag with a closed hand. I think it is best if the unsourced text is removed from the article, but the images of the 6 county flag kept with an open thumb, and the 9 with a closed. Jonto 23:54, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Only one council?

"One exception is Lisburn, where the council has decided to fly the Union Flag every day of the year." I notice that outside the council offices in Coleraine there is always* a Union Flag. Could this just be a case of out of date Information? Also on that note, I would be very surprised if the DUP-heavy Ballymena Council hasn't voted in favour? (* I'm not there 24/7 but whenever I have driven past - a couple of times a week)  Keithology  Talk!  18:22, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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[edit] Merge Northern Ireland flags issue into Flag of Northern Ireland

Would it not be best to merge the two articles seeing as Northen Ireland does not have a flag of its own, the flags issue would be able to explain it without having a separate page. --Barry entretien 23:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

• Agreed, As there is no specific "Flag of Northern Ireland" and the two pages basically go through the same arguements then they should be merged.--Vintagekits 23:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree. The broader issue should be left with its own article. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:38, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree- NI does have a flag of its own. Astrotrain 14:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Agreed, Northen Ireland does not have an individual flag as per the British Government. --Barry entretien 21:02, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
• Strongly Disagree, this article is about the disagreements surrounding the flags used in Northern Ireland, not any one particular flag. There are, however, parts of the Flag of Northern Ireland which could be removed. NotMuchToSay 20:42, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
• Agreed, as Northern Ireland has no offical flag the two articles should be merged.--padraig3uk 12:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree - On a purely technical point they are both quite substantial articles. The Flag of Northern Ireland page should just focus on flags used by Northern Ireland and the laws surrounding their use. The Northern Ireland flags issue should deal with the wider issue of flags in Northern Ireland and their meanings. « Keith ^t/_e» 13:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
• Disagree, they are fine the way they are. --Guinnog 13:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll remove the merger proposal since most people are not in favour. NotMuchToSay 19:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Resemble the St George's Cross

I changed

"The yellow background became white, to more closely resemble the flag of England." to "The yellow background became white, with the result that it more closely resembles the flag of England"

It may seem subtle, but the original implied (or at least could have been interpreted as implying) that the intention was to resemble the English flag and I'm not sure that was the case. I would prefer they'd use the Cross of St Patrick, but I'm told the red upright cross was kept to highlight the heritage of the former province of Ulster. I'm not sure what the reason was for the introduction of the white when the Coat of Arms was granted. beano 01:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)