Talk:Groove metal

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Contents 1 Groove metal? 2 Drowning Pool 3 What would define groove metal? 4 Meshuggah 5 Groove metal? 6 Groove Metal as a genre is signifigant in Metal History 7 What the f.. 8 Some more references 9 Post-thrash and groove metal, not 100% the same 10 removal 11 Addition of scale stylings

[edit] Groove metal?

Wow, a first. I have never, ever, heard this term before! I'm strongly questioning its very existence. "Half-thrash"? What? While the bands sure are groovy, I doubt the fact that this term is widely used. Is this section really necessary? Shandolad 12:16, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes bands like Pantera, White Zombie, and others have labelled themselves as "groove metal" there is a noted difference, unlike other so-called genres of music (such as the -core genres which all sound pretty much the same to me, which to me should all fall under one labelling, "hardcore-punk" or "hardcore-metal") - groove has a distinctive slower tempo, synchopated chord patterns, major use of the blues minor scale for rythm guitar riffs, etc. Most Metal genres can be very distinctive; e.g. Thrash Metal: Fast tempo, semi-shouted singing Death Metal: Fast tempo, low grunts Black Metal: Usually high pitched singing Grindcore (the only one of the cores which is different to me) -instanely fast guitar riffs with very fast beats Doom Metal - Very slow heavy metal (also known as "Goth Metal") then you have Groove metal - which is somewhere distinctly in the middle tempo wise, simular to classic metal's tempo but much heavier in sound by contrast. DarrelClemmons

I must admit I had never heard of Groove Metal until just when I was surfing the Wiki. What about the last few Anthrax albums with John Bush? I guess they would be Groove Metal then. Not Thrash which is what Anthrax were in the Belladonna days, but Groove would fit their later work. What do you guys think? JSL595 20:23, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually this is not the first time I've heard someone say this. Supposedly Overkill's and Annihilator's newer stuff is also groove (as opposed to thrash). I haven't added either of the bands since I am unfamiliar with their newer material. Metal-archives.com has Anthrax listed as speed/thrash/groove so I guess the classification would be valid. Check out some of the reviews for "We've Come For You All." Pasajero 18:23, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Any genre that includes both White Zombie, and... well, pretty much any other band listed here, must be incredibly vague. You'd think two bands in the same genre could tour together; however, a hypothetical white zombie / lamb of god tour, for example, would probably leave a lot of fans of both bands asking, "Why the hell are these two touring together? They play incredibly different music." 67.161.21.254 16:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Drowning Pool

What happened here, I thought this was a groove metal band, but instead their listed as nu metal..This draws concern, because even though they arrived in the spot light durring the nu metal boom, they do not use elements of nu metal, such as turn tables, hiphop/beat box/basslines, rapping vocal styles, ect. Instead they tend to fit the genre of traditional alt. metal, and groove metal.. 72.148.85.104 07:38, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Drowning Pool is rock not metal. Therefore they can't possibly be groove METAL. Pasajero 20:41, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd agree that drowning pool is groove, the lead singer was good friends with Dimebag Darrel, and they have covered pantera songs that I couldn't hear that it wasnt a classic DP song. there are many differences but that's too expect from two different bands. I'd say they are but nu-metal fits too as most nu takes it's inspiration from groove orionted bands such as sepultura, prong, pantera and such

[edit] What would define groove metal?

Well, for me, I'd have to say:

• 1. Mid tempo, blues-based riffs (sometimes dissonant riffs using not just blues scales but also the chromatic scale).
• 2. Hardcore-punk style shouted vocals.
• 3. Intelligent lyrics.

As far as tone of guitars: cutting out the midrange around 200 hz of the guitars while boosting highs and lows Groove metal usually has a thunderous presence... Less is more, I guess you could say, where as thrash metal, death metal and grind-core try to say it in a billion notes per second, groove metal tries to simplify it a bit.. kind of like doom, only not quite so drastic.. Doom is really slow tempo, a good example: Candlemass Epistle 81, right around 50 beats per minute. A standard Pantera song, howeveer... probably between 90 and 160 beats per minute. (Cemetary Gates is right at 140 beats per minute)

Thrash and Death metal do more of a "droning a single note" thing, where as groove changes notes in its melodies or chord patterns more often rather than droning as often (especially in break-down riffs) There are exceptions to the rule however.... There are bands who are considered mostly groove who have written thrash or death songs. good example of one that uses drone notes: Pantera Suicide Note Pt. 2... but at the end it has a couple of nice break down groove riffs.

[edit] Meshuggah

Now, I'm no expert, but I wouldn't call them groove metal. I mean, they are very hard to categorize, but wouldn't it make more sense to put them in the Thrash article instead?

They sure ain't thrash (even though they did have one release that was actually thrash). Most sites classify them under post-thrash which is the same thing as groove metal. Pasajero 02:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Contradictions Collapse and Destroy Erase Improve sound very thrashy. Chaosphere has some thrashiness but traces of groove are also in there. Nothing and Catch 33 are pure groove. Markendust

The article states that groove metal isn't very riff based, as compared to other genres of metal music. Meshuggah's music is very riff-based, and they don't have neither a clean bass sound (the bass is distorted to almost the same degree as the guitars) nor any bass fills. They're hard to categorize, but I wouldn't say the meet enough of the common traits of groove metal to be called such. Klumpfot 09:47, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because they play post-thrash which is more riff-oriented than groove metal. Most of us use the terms interchangeably, but they have their differeces. Maybe that sentence should be changed. --Pasajero 01:55, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Groove metal?

The term "groove metal" is constructed many years after most of the bands and albums mentioned in the article formed/were released. Maybe it exist, maybe it doesn't. I don't agree with listing bands like Entombed and Sepultura in this category nor as creators of this genre; if it exists. If there is a genre called "groove metal" it would sound like Suicidal Tendencies newer albums or maybe even Primus.

I heard a couple of tracks from Chaos A.D. (Sepultura) for the first time a few days ago and it sounded like something old Machine Head would release. I would definately categorize it as groove metal. --Pasajero 14:26, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groove Metal as a genre is signifigant in Metal History

The history of heavy metal would not be complete without the formation of Groove Metal from the blended forms of minimalized thrash, death, blues, and hardcore. You can tell the style is distinct enough from thrash because of the sound. Several thrash metal bands eventually simply "evolved" into Groove Metal. You can tell a groove band by hearing the way they sound. The formula for minimalism is usually cutting away all the unnecessary. Groove Metal pretty much follows that formula, and usually saves complexities for the guitar solos themselves, whereas the rhythm is more prominant, solos aren't as long, and the rhythm guitar is usually slower than most other metal genres but not slow enough to be considered doom or sludge. Accentuation is put on beats in groove metal, even more than in thrash or death. Palm muted chords in groove metal are very percussive and more frequent than in thrash or death, even though thrash and death use palm muted chords a lot for punctuation, groove metal uses it for a "paragraph" for musical phrasing, the guitar usually following a percussive beat in itsself. (Listen to "A New Level" by Pantera, "The Impossibility of Reason" by Chimara, or "Dividian" by Machine Head to get an idea of what I'm talking about) This isn't always the formula, but most groove metal bands use some kind of formula akin to this. A "sustain or palm mute stop" phrasing, if you will. Dimebag called it synchopated beats because the guitar would be playing a complimentary beat with the drums, but it'd be different (See Primal Concrete Sledge for an example)

I think the verses in "Psycho Holiday" (Pantera) also follow that formula. --Pasajero 01:04, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

A term coined by one band, and applied only to that band by its fans does not a genre make, nor does it meet Notablity for Wikipedia.

See my comment in the section right below this. Nufy8 01:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What the f..

Just tell me who in name of satan use this term? I've never seen this genre in any serious metal magazine or web page...it's just thrash... with this criterion then we'll be going to invent a genre for every band in the metal world... half thrash? puf,ridiculous....post thrash? maybe, but thrash after all....

Get real! Machine Head, Pantera, and so on bare little resemblance to thrash metal. Go learn a thing or two about thrash metal. The term is mainly used by thrashers and black metallers which I can tell from your reaction to the term that you are NEITHER. --Pasajero 16:14, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Here, here, here, and in the booklet to Pantera's compilation album, after a quick search. I'm sure there's more out there. Nufy8 16:15, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Metallum uses it heavily. Enter Machine Head or any of the bands listed below and you will see. You can also use the search function to look under genres. Markendust

Groove Metal is a signifigant enough change from its parent roots (Thrash, Death, Doom, Hardcore and Blues) to warrant a genre for itsself. Most Thrash bands usually used faster riffing throughout an entire song, same for Death. Groove however has slow breakdown beats for many a song, and usually follows a percussive minimalistic approach whereas thrash is usually more tonally complex, faster tempo etc. Also if you listen to the difference between Chaos A.D. (Sepultura) and their earlier work such as Arise, you'll hear a signifigant difference. Chaos AD and later is more percussive with guitar work than is Arise (although both are very good albums) and it shows their evolution from thrash to post thrash(groove) - almost all songs made by sepultura after chaos ad don't contain blazing thrash riffs anymore, its mostly beat driven guitar work, with the minimalistic approach we keep discussing (it still is good music, in my opinion, but thats POV). The difference is major. You can tell it. If you listen to early Slayer, early Testament, early Metallica, in the 85 - 92 period of heavy metal, then listen to peers such as Pantera, Zombie, Machine Head, you'll see a signifigant change. Especially compared side by side, its hard to classify something with such a moderate tempo (generally 60 to 150 beats per minute) as "thrash" when thrash back in the 80's up to the 90's had typical blast beat tempos around 200 beats per minute or higher, So yes, Half-Thrash, Neo-Thrash, Post-Thrash, or Groove Metal as we so colloquially call it, is a genre in and of itsself, like it or not, there is a signifigant shift in the 1985 through 1990's era of metal, possibly due to many things... (backlash to grunge, backlash to popular music, backlash to hairmetal and glam rock) Many elements from thrash are removed. So how can you possibly call it thrash? The technical style is different. You can't honestly say you can listen to Meshuggah and think its the same genre style as oldschool Megadeth, I know its comparing apples with oranges, but if you listen to Testament, Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer, all side by side (all their early albums) you can tell they are simular enough to be considered thrash, even though they are all different in their own stylings, they still have a simular musical phrasing. Fast as hell. Groove isn't all bells and whistles and going as fast as you possibly can 100% of the time. Its about building up to a breakdown beat (and thats mostly influenced by hardcore punk)

This is blatantly not a genre. "Groove Metal is a signifigant enough change from its parent roots (Thrash, Death, Doom, Hardcore and Blues) to warrant a genre for itsself." Well done, see here for the fact we dont allow coin terming here.

"Groove however has slow breakdown beats for many a song, and usually follows a percussive minimalistic approach whereas thrash is usually more tonally complex, faster tempo etc." Also see this article.

Also, as previously explained, coined-terms for one band do not make a genre. Most bands change genres over time, its called musical evoloution. That doesnt mean you can coin a term and use it to advertise a band on Wikipedia.

This article is a poor clone of the Thrashcore article, and as such will be put up for AFD shortly due to this regard.

You must have missed the sources I pointed out to you that contradict your statement that this subgenre is a coined-term for a single band. Read the third paragraph after the "What the f.." topic. And you can add this to that list, as well. Nufy8 16:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Wait a minute, since when is it only "one band" that coined the term? And since when is it an "advertisement?" where do you pull this from? Several bands call themselves by this term, several fanzines use this term, several websites use this term, several magazines use this term, so who are you, as one person, to say that "one band coined the term?" and who are you as a person to say what is allowed as a genre and what isn't? Obiviously, there are several magazines, several bands, and several fanzines and websites that go against your statement of it being only "one band" and "a coined term just off the cuff" so where are you comming from? Musical evolution DOES start new genres. Don't be a dolt. And also, its very different than the "Thrashcore" article. "poor clone"? what crack are you smoking? Perfect example of musical evolution: Black Sabbath started out as a blues band. Are they still a blues band? Is calling them "heavy metal" coining a term? PS- since when is Wikipedia censored? And who are you to want to censor people for making an article about an important movement in musical history?

here is proof that its wide spread around the world, not in just ONE spot, not just ONE person, and not just ONE band. THEY CALL THEMSELVES THIS GENRE. Obviously we all must be insane then, by this person's standard. Several people use this term, people I've never even heard of in Australia, half way around the world where I'm at on this planet. So don't tell me one person coined this phrase, don't tell me I'm "advertising my favorite bands" or whatever you think we're doing. All we're doing is making an article about a signifigant period in history for heavy metal. If you don't like it, we have plenty of proof that the genre IS a genre, and IS signifigant in history, and that WE didn't make the term up, and that SEVERAL bands call themselves this term. It doesn't matter if you like it or not. Being a wikipedia bully and saying "i'm going to bring it up for AFD" is just being a silly and arbitrary, you're trying to censor people and last I read wikipedia isn't censored. Its also not a soapbox. So if you want to debate about the existance or not of groove metal as a genre, debate it with the countless other people who use the term and call themselves that. Its not a competition on here. a few people here felt the need to write an article based upon a musical genre at a certain point in history. Thats it. The genre has historical signifigance, and as a genre deserves a place in history and in heavy metal articles just as much as death metal and thrash metal does. Honestly, who are you to say "this is not a genre?" Honestly, argue with the thousands upon thousands of others. I don't have time for people who are elitists or stubborn.

http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=5&a=ls&s=134 http://www.last.fm/tag/groove%20metal http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/groove%20metal http://www.shadesofdust.com/ http://www.devyce.com/ http://www.mrgig.com/performer/622 http://loscuro.musica.com.uy/xartists/?g=MzM= http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:--r0nXF3ma8J:www.live4metal.com/tourniquet.htm+Groove+Metal+bands&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=69 (interview with Ted Kirkpatrick of Tourniquet, March 2003, mentions "Groove Metal" in discussion of genres ) http://www.in-cyde.com/ (An Austrailian band whom I've never heard of before that call themselves groove metal) http://www.annecarlini.com/ex_interviews.php?id=638 (A band I've never heard of called Hostility, describes their own music as Groove Metal in the article interview)

By the way, some of the above link to artists websites, not to advertise them, but to show they call themselves that specific genre of music. (because evidently somebody must think one person made up the term or something? Which isn't the case.) Its not an ad (I haven't even heard of some of the bands on that list). Just proof that the words "groove metal" exist outside of this article. If anything type it into google and see what you come up with and stop trying to be a bully saying you're going to bring up for AFD. Thanks. DarrelClemmons

Most of those 'sources' are POV sites that are changed by its users, and most of them dont meet Wikipedia Standards of Notability. I didnt bother reading your whole complaint section, just your sources. All of which fail to be reputable.

You seem to be ignoring the sources actually cited in the article, which are clearly reputable. Nufy8 18:07, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Metallum is reputable, The Metal Observer is reputable. What are you talking about? Please follow wikipedia etiquette and sign your editsDarrelClemmons

I added references at the bottom of the page along with Pasajero's, this time with the actual links of the record company Road Runner records labelling some of their own artists as groove metal. Hopefully this will prove to be "reputable" enough for someone to stop complaining about sources. Its comming from actual record companies and music industry people. Not just some coined term one person made up. DarrelClemmons

[edit] Some more references

• http://www.eraseronline.com/styledisplay.php?Style=101
• http://www.antenna.nu/genre_des.php (look under neo-thrash at the bottom of the page)
• http://loscuro.musica.com.uy/xartists/?g=MzM=
• http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Exhorder/bio.aspx (Roadrunner Records' official Exhorder website. Describes them as groove metal)
• http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/artists/Sepultura/ (Roadrunner Records describes Sepultura as Groove Metal)
• http://www.korg.com/sbytes/article.asp?ArtistID=278 (Korg, a music accessory company describes Fear Factory as Groove Metal)

--Pasajero 01:56, 5 November 2006 (UTC) &DarrelClemmons

[edit] Post-thrash and groove metal, not 100% the same

I feel that someone should clear things up since there is much confusion about the terms. Post-thrash is very similar to groove metal, but with more thrash influence and is more riff-oriented. In other words it's groove metal that is borderline thrash, but not quite thrash. The only reason they are grouped together is because the difference between the two is not significant enough for each to have it's own article. Try giving the listed albums a spin to see if you notice the differences. Both genres nevertheless, groovy :)

post-thrash

• Exhorder - The Law
• Pantera - Cowboys from Hell
• Sepultura - Chaos A.D.

groove metal

• Machine Head - Burn My Eyes
• Pantera - Vulgar Display of Power
• Sepultura - Against

--Pasajero 10:37, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] removal

I removed this text

It is a popular belief that nu metal spawned from this genre of metal, due to both genres utilizing strong usage of down-tuned power chords, having mainstream popularity and similar lyrical subject matter. However, groove metal never reached the commercial heights nu metal achieved and is generally more respected by groups of heavy metal fans instead of nu metal.

it just seemed like a way for somebody to say that he liked groove and that nobody should say that Nu metal is inspired by groove 'cause he hates nu metal because it's commercial or something like that. All in all it's an attempt to weasel in a POV and there is never any clarification on who these "some" who believe these things and which "groups of heavy metal fans" he refers to, sounds like original (and misguiding?) research to me.

The first sentence of the paragraph is perfectly fine. It's just stating the similarities between both genres and how groove metal influenced nu metal. The second sentence is debatable though. --Pasajero 16:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Addition of scale stylings

I found it somewhat necessary to add this: "Many artists using such scales as blues minor/blues pentatonic, natural minor, and chromatic scale for heavier based riffs, accentuating riffs usually with heavily palm muted power chords, while soloing scales vary from artist to artist, although most have used the blues minor." Because of all my history of listening to metal, the "flowing" riffs of Groove Metal tend to be influenced by blues minor, and its not meant as "selective wording" - its just self-evident, as most bands (Machine Head, Pantera, Exhorder, Pissing Razors, White Zombie, and most of the artists on the key artists list) Tend to use Blues Minor a LOT for their rhythm guitar work, as a matter of fact, for MOST of their rhythm guitar work. Its not meant as selective phrasing, just as self evident fact, even though many groove metal artists incorporate their own stylings into it. (Source for this research is from several Guitar World articles, off the top of my head Dimebag Darrell's Riffer Maddness articles come to mind, for whomever needed this cited) User:DarrelClemmons