Talk:Hwang Seong-gyeong

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[edit] Katakana

I don't see why it's necessary to write Hwang's name in Katakana on this page. He has hancha, hangul, and romanization, and he's not Japanese, so his katakana name is irrelevant. For other non-Japanese soul edge characters too, with perhaps the exception of Arthur and Setsuka, katakana is irrelevant.Bethereds 17:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

• The game itself was made in Japan and the Katakana spelling was presumably used in the original Japanese release, so I believe it is very much relevant to the article.Shabby 01:37, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

This article is in English, If you must use Katakana in the Japanese article, then by all means, go for it. Should we accomodate all releases of this game in every language and write everyone's name in 10 different languages? Katakana is irrelevant, and I will illustrate to you exactly how.Bethereds 19:16, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

National pride is all well and good, but this fictional character not being Japanese does not change the fact that the game it appears in was Japanese in origin. I think there are enough instances in Wikipedia where the names of characters (books, movies, historical figures etc.) are denoted both in English as well as whatever language originally pertained to the subject to justify the original Japanese spelling of the character's name to appear in the article.134.121.126.60 23:27, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

The above post was mine, I had forgotten to log in. My point, however, still stands. Most articles in Wikipedia concerning subjects not English in origin also render the subject's name in the language of the original source. Seeing as how this practice seems standard operating procedure for Wikipedia, I don't see how this article should be any different. To reiterate, the subject's Korean nationality does nothing to change the fact that the character was created and is owned by a Japanese company. Keeping that in mind, we must treat the Japanese rendering of the name as the original source regardless of wether or not you think including it in the article is somehow being discriminative against Koreans.Shabby 23:46, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

• I agree with Shabby. I am English, but I am not offended by the katakana on British characters' articles such as Christie (Dead or Alive) and Ivy (Soul Calibur). Why do you think Korean characters are exempt from stating how the names are written in Japan (the place the games originated from)? Mr.bonus 14:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Offended or not, these are English language articles. Names written in Japanese only should apply to characters (or people) who would normally write their names in Japanese. For example... Ling Xiaoyu, although not Japanese, clearly lives in Japan, thus Katakana is relevant for her. Hwoarang on the other hand.... not Japanese, and not living in Japan. There's no reason to write his name in katakana in an English language article. It's fine for Arthur, Xiaoyu, Lee Chaolan, and any Japanese character there is. For everyone else, it's simply otakus wanting their way. And the only reason why I happen to be adamantly changing Korean characters is because those are the ones I am watchingBethereds 14:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm willing to admit that you would be justified in removing the Katakana if Hwang were an actual Korean person whose name is not often written in Japanese or who doesn't live in Japan. However, your reasoning for removing the Katakana is somewhat flawed in that in Wikipedia, we do not take in-universe information into account when dealing with a subject's origins. Hwang's backstory indicates that he is indeed Korean, and the appearance of the Korean transliteration of his name has a legitimate reason for appearing in the article on that basis. In the real world however (meaning the one that we occupy and not the world depicted within the Soul Calibur games), Hwang is and always will be an original Japanese creation and the property of a Japanese company. This being the case, I don't see why we shouldn't acknowledge the character's real-life origins by at least mentioning his name as it appears in the original Japanese literature somewhere in the article. Just for the record, I'm not arguing this point out of any "Otaku" compulsion; I simply believe that we should respect the original source literature when it comes to writing these articles. Shabby 16:14, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's pretty obvious that Soul Calibur is a Japanese game made by a Japanese company, and that all the characters in Soul Calibur are Japanese creations. That conclusion can be easily made on conjecture. As for the Katakana appearing in Japanese Literature, duh, it's in Japanese, that's why. Simply putting the person's name in kanji would not suffice, as Japanese pronounce chinese charachters differently than Koreans do. So the solution is to put katakana in the article so that Japanese gamers know how to pronounce the character's name. As these articles are in English, the katakana is worthless. Only in cases like, for example, Sypha Belnades from Castlevania (Who's name in Katakana is シルビア　フェルナンデス Sylvia Fernandez!) does it make sense, as it shows a complete lack of knowledge of Katakana in the translators for Castlevania. THAT's relevant. If you want to write an article using katakana, you can write one in Japanese!Bethereds 01:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Shabby (again). Japanese video game character - Japanese katakana. Back story is irrelevant. And oh yes, I'm not an "Otaku" - just someone who likes Japanese videogames. Mr.bonus 16:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Well I'll have to counter with Japanese language article - Japanese name is relevant. Otherwise it isn't. What purpose does writing his name in Katakana serve in this English language article?Bethereds 21:24, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what you think, it's on most game character articles. Why should Soul Edge/Calibur be any different? Please tell me what purpose having Chinese and Korean translations serve on an English language article. Your argument is terrible and you are obviously trying to exclude any reference to Japan on your Korean articles. Mr.bonus 14:14, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the Chinese isn't a translation. Koreans use Chinese characters for their names even in Korea, so it's relevant. As for hangul, some might be curious how to write a character's name in hangul, especially if one isn't familiar with certain systems of romanization. For example, "sung" could represent either 숭, 승, or 성, because the romanization isn't obvious unless specified as McCune-Reischauer, or Revised Romanization of Korean. Thus, Hangul and Hanja for Koreans is relevant, whereas katakana is not. All that aside, I think Japanese is relevant for Japanese characters, Mitsurugi for example... Would Korean be relevant for Mitsurugi? I'd say no, because he's not Korean and doesn't live in Korea. It's al perfectly logical.Bethereds 16:06, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Not logical one bit. Back story is not important. I'd actually say that Japanese is the only important language to state the character's name in as it is a Japanese game. Hangul and Chinese are the ones that are irrelevant. Unless you actually believe these characters exist in the real world. 86.145.219.77 16:55, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Katakana is only relevant if it were a Japanese article. Seeing as how it's in English, it's not relevant. If you're so passionate about Japanese, write a Japanese article and use all the katakana you want, I won't stop you. If you're suggesting that Hangul and Hanja aren't relevant either, then that's fine, but then you must also argue that it's irrelevant to have kanji on Japanese characters' pages.Bethereds 00:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You are missing the point entirely. The katakana is only used because this is where the game originated. If any character was written in Japanese media (magazines etc) then this is how they will be written. It is nothing to do with where the character comes from story wise. Check how it's written here Dhalsim - Japanese because it is a Japanese creation and second - where the name comes from (Malayalam, Korean, Chinese or whatever). Hwang for example should be first - Japanese: ファン・ソンギョン Fan Songyon and then where the name comes from in Korean language written in Hangul/chinese characters. The Mitsurugi point made no sense - why not argue to include Hindi on Ryo Sakazaki's page to include more information? Mr.bonus 17:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

You're lucky that I am replying to your posts one at a time and not all at once, because then people would see that you replied to my last comment three times, anyway, Fan Songyon isn't his name, it's romanization of Katakana's best estimation of what the hangul sounds like. Why not just go straight to the source?Bethereds 00:22, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

You are being ridiculous by thinking about where the character has lived and how they would write their name. They are fictional Japanese creations and that's all there is to it. Mr.bonus 17:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to police all of videogamedom. Do I think Mario should have katakana in his article? Absolutely not. I don't know enough about Dhalsim, Ryo Sakazaki, or the Tomato princess in Salad bowl land to made any judgements on how to write their names. This is why I am only going to bother to watch ones I care about, but if I see it somewhere that I don't think its relevant, I'll change it..Bethereds 00:19, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Most Wikipedia articles will include a non-English subject's name in its original and, above all, official rendering. I have seen plenty of official Namco documentation and literature depicting Hwang's name in Katakana as was written in previous versions of this article, and thus I am inclined to believe that there is a reasonable basis for including it. On the other hand, I have yet to see any official literature rendering Hwang's name in Chinese or Hangul (there may in fact be such literature, but I've never seen it), and I suspect the Chinese and Hangul renderings aren't strictly official, however accurate and correct they may be. I also think that you're getting too caught up in back-story and in-universe information in this case. Hwang is the creation and property of Namco, a Japanese company, and as far as I'm concerned this character is a Japanese subject first and a Korean subject second. Shabby 05:33, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Shabby is 100% right again. Japanese character created by a Japanese company. The fact that they decided to make him Korean is less important. Again - Ivy is a Japanese creation even though she comes from England story-wise. Mr.bonus 14:44, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we've all expressed our opinions enough. This is going in circles. If you want to change it back that much, go ahead. I'll simply change it back until the end of time.Bethereds 11:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

You aren't showing much good faith with this sort of comment. -- Exitmoose 00:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

More to the argument, cross posted from my userpage.... Whether they are or arent' Japanese in origin is irrelevant as the article is in ENGLISH!!!!! Thus the closest form of recognition as to how their name should be represented in English would be either the McCune Reischauer romanization or Korean standard romanization of their name, or in game spelling in English. Hangul should then be second. Hanja 3rd. Japanese has no place in this case because 1. In Japanese versions of the game, the name is represented in romanization, and in story modes also in English! Katakana doesn't belong because it's an ENGLISH article and provides no value whatsoever to English readers. Romanization of Katakana has even LESS place, as it is romanizing something that has altered the original sound to begin with. Since we are romanizing from the source (English title), showing the source(Hangul), and showing the meaning (hanja), why is there need to show how Japanese would best estimate how to pronounce the source in their own language? Maybe if the article was in JAPANESE it would make sense. Go write an article in Japanese and use all the frigging katakana you want. I won't stop you then...Bethereds 00:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Bethereds"

Please try and understand. I know that you want to improve the quality of articles related to Korea, and this is a good thing. But the character's names are in Japanese, even if that Japanese corresponds to a name in Korean. The English (and Hangul, for that matter) is more akin to a translation of a translation than the "proper" name of the character. Surely we can imagine someone would want to know this, just as someone might want to know the original name of Snow White. I think leaving the Hangul and the Katakana is a perfectly reasonable compromise. -- Exitmoose 01:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I concur with those who say katakana has a place in this article. While the article is about a fictional Korean person, it is really about a character in a Japanese story. There is more than ample precedent for katakana to be in the article, though I think we can leave the Kanji and Hangul in as a compromise. -- Exitmoose 00:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

To those threatening to "report" me, go ahead and report me to whoever you want. If I get banned for this, it just proves what I thought all along, Otakus ruin wikipedia. But I won't be banned. What you will find is that we've got a content dispute. I violate nothing by making the changes I am making and my argument makes just as much sense, if not more than yours, and concensus isn't reached when you change the page any more than it is when I have made mine. I'm not making any POV statements (i.e. "Hwang is the best character," "Japanese are good people,"). The 4 or 5 of you seem to think that because th 4 or 5 of you outnumber me, you guys are right, but in reality, that only makes the 6 of us losers who argue about it online, while the rest of the world doesn't care because this issue really isn't important to them. There are more who agree with me, just not many more who care enough to be bothered to edit wikipedia all the time. You guys have otakus who want to insert Japan into everything on your side.

But here are my arguments AGAIN...

The source for this katakana is what? No one seems to be able to answer that. In game (SC3 for ps2) I see no Japanese language anywhere, and I own the Japanese game and PS2, not the American one. Where's this katakana coming from? From Japanese magazines? Japanese websites? Well hate to rain on your parade, but there are plenty of Korean magazines and websites that represent these guys totally in hangul. That means, to be fair, we should change all the Soul Calibur pages to add hangul. Oh wait, I think there's some literature on this game in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Taiwan, crap, we'd better add Chinese characters for everyone who doesn't officially have them. I can see why some of you might be inclined to want to include katakana, but really, what purpose is that? No one seems to be able to answer that either!

But suppose I relent, and accept a compromise so that katakana has a place. Even then... in the games all the characters are represented with their names spelled out in English.... GUESS WHAT? AT THE VERY LEAST, THAT MEANS THAT ANY ROMANIZATION OF KATAKANA IS IRRELEVANT, as true spellings exist. Anyone who actually knows any Japanese knows that that's the first rule of romanization. If an established romanization exists, go with it... example, Meidi department stores (not Meiji), McDonald's (not Makodonarudo), Beat Takeshi (not BEATO Takeshi) Oh wait, let me pick something you guys might understand, Sailor Moon (not Seiraa Muun). Anyone who doesn't know how to read katakana has no business trying to pronounce it anyway, so why don't you just remove the romanization completely since a romanization is already established?

A warning for taking ownership? I don't take ownership at all. Add whatever you want, if it's sourced and relevant, I won't mind. You guys seem to be pretty quick to edit my changes as YOU see fit... Why can't I do the same?Bethereds 12:52, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The name of this page

Seeing as how there are so many people in the world named Hwang for example, the Korean geneticist who claimed to have been the first to clone someone, the Korean soccer player, etc etc... it seems to me that the way to differentiate them would be do add their names to the page. If two people have the same name exactly, then perhaps listing their primary occupation in parenthesis is most prudent. But here we just have Hwang (Soul Edge), which is flawed in so many ways. Many people don't even know that Soul Edge existed in the first place. This would be like a page for Jin Kazama called Kazama (Tekken III). I'm going to change it back.Bethereds 19:34, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Please do not move this page back - there is nothing "anti-korean' about making all Soul Calibur characters' articles match. There has been a discussion on this to name article titles after their most common name - and Hwang's surname is not mentioned enough in the games. He is announced as simply Hwang throughout the series. Mr.bonus 14:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Ever play Soul Edge, the FIRST in the series? Announcer says his whole name..... and.. what are you trying to match to? And also.. his surname is Hwang, but that's besides the point.Bethereds 14:29, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Come to think of it - I seem to remember the announcer saying Hwang's full name (the only character who's full name was stated) so I'll back down on this article. But Yun-Seong and Han Myong's pages are still incorrect. Mr.bonus 18:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)