Talk:Iranian peoples
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[edit] Iranian Ethnicity
Iranian people are not only related through langauge but also genetics. Iranian is a race, not just a culture. This is evident by just looking at a Kurdish person from Turkey and a Persian from Iran.
-The above statement is misleading; race is merely a socially constructed concept that has no scientific basis, and even by the definition of this term "Iranian" would not be a race, i believe what you are trying to refer to is that "Iranian" is an ethnicity.
[edit] Work in progress, please help
Here is what I have so far (Ethnic group info box):
| Iranian Peoples |
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| Total population |
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152.7 - 205.2 million (Not including possible Iranian peoples) |
| Regions with significant populations |
| Middle East, South Asia, Central Asia, Caucasus, and also dispersed across the world due to immigration |
| Languages |
| Persian (various dialects), Kurdish (various dialects), Zazaki, Balouchi, Ossetic, Luri, Pashtu, Talyshi, Mazandarani, Gilaki |
| Religions |
| Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Bahai'ism, and various others |
- The "Iranian peoples" are mainly characterized by their use of Iranian languages. The addition Not including possible Iranian peoples is not needed - instead, estimates vary should make it. There is no need to mention all kinds of languages ... it's totally enough to say Iranian languages. Tājik 00:34, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Feel free to edit it. Also, the reason I put that down is because Croatians, Bulgarians, etc.. are still disputed.Khosrow II 01:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The image
I really like the image, but can we get more non-Persians please? We shouldn't forget that the other Iranian peoples are no less important!—Khoikhoi 02:10, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Well, in my previous one I had Saladin (Kurd), Cyrus (Persian), and Avicenna (Tajik). I dont really care what the image is, so long as there is an image.Khosrow II 02:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I know. But I thought that these 3 Persians actually represent the wider "Iranian identity" rather than a specific "Persian identity". Zarathustra was not Persian but Bactrian. Darius was an ancient Persian and should not be confused with modern Persians - besides that, he was the Emperor of the first Iranian Empire. Avicenna wrote most of his works in Arabic rather than Persian. His ethnicity was most likely "Sogdian". Rumi represents a whole range of peoples - most of all, he represents a unique version of ISlam which sprang out of a strong Iranian element.
- I removed the piture of Saladin, because Saladin was more an Arab than a Kurd or Iranian. And I replaced the picture of Cyrus with that of Darius, because Darius' picture is better known. Tājik 02:24, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- Actually, Cyrus was not the shah of the first Iranian Empire. You have to remember that the Medes were the founders of the first Iranian Empire (while the Bactrians and Sogdians founded the first Iranian kingdoms).Khosrow II 02:46, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I understand Tājik, it's just that I'd just rather have it not seem like Persians are the "dominators of all Iranian peoples". I'm sure there are plenty of famous non-Persians we can add—right? We don't even have to have 4 people, we can have many more like in the Kazakhs page, or even the Volga Tatars article (although I think that's possibly overkill). Additionally, not all Pan-Iranists are Persians, right? —Khoikhoi 03:05, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
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- I am curious why all the personalities in the image are Persians. Is this a page for Persians? Anyway, Tajik's argument on removing Saladin (being more Arab than Kurd !!!), sometimes makes me wonder that all this talk of Iranian people, Greater Iran,etc, are just convenient vehicles for advancing the cause of Persian domination over the region.Heja Helweda 03:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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- Calm down. By the way, not all of them are Persians. Tajiks are Central Asia Persians in the context that they speak a Persian dialect, however, they are mostly the descendents of Sogdians, and Bactrians, and other Central Asian Iranic peoples. However, I do believe we should have more pictures, including Ossetians, Kurds, Pashtuns, Balouchi's, etc...Khosrow II 03:55, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Azarbaijani people
Azarbaijani people should be included in the list as Iranian peoples. Their race and genetics are Iranian. This has been proven by various scientific tests (done by non-Iranians). The "Azari" name, culture and history is Persian. More than 40% of their language is Persian. Most of their names, traditional costumes, cuisine, architecture, etc....is PERSIAN not Turkic.```` —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.108.66.84 (talk • contribs) 21:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC).
I agree too, infact I was reading that before Azari, the spoken language in the now Azari region was Persian.--84.70.111.97 00:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- This has already been discussed in the talk page archives. Azeris may fit-in to your definition of Iranian peoples, but they don't match the definition of this article. Khoikhoi 00:25, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The infobox needs to go
The infobox is useless as the Iranian peoples aren't an ethnic group, but a series of ethnic groups sometimes only linked by language and sometimes by other factors. Tombseye 05:50, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. {{Infobox Ethnic group}} is only supposed to be used in articles about ethnic groups. The Iranian peoples are a group of ethnic groups. Khoikhoi 02:23, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Cool, but why do I get the feeling that resistance and controversy is on its way?! Tombseye 02:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
-This is absolutely correct, the Azeris were Iranians who were "turkophoned" (adopted turkish language)
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- Not all Azeri's are Iranians my friend. There are several ethnic groups who speak Azeri today, but their origins are all different. For example, Iranian Azeri's are Iranian, while those from the Caucasus are Caucasians, and the ones in Iraq are called Turkomans.Azerbaijani 17:13, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] pictures
There's two pictures of Persian people in the article I think we should change one to a Kurd; Saladin would be good. Ozgur Gerilla 14:26, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Afghanistan mosque
I'm not judging whether or not this should be included in the article, I'm just saying that I don't really see the connection between the photo's caption and the article. Not all Afghanis are Iranian are they? So were most of the mosques built by Iranian peoples there? Are non-Iranaian Afghanis not muslim? Can someone who is knowledgable please clarify this. Thanks Avraham 02:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hello. Well in this case, this particular mosque is located in a province that is predominantly Iranian (Tajik actually or eastern Persian). It also is a representation of the predominant faith of the Iranian peoples, Islam as we had some debate a while back about representing Islam which a Pashtun user brought up and we settled on this image as it's a nice looking picture of an impressive example of 16th century architecture that can be found in from Kurdistan to western Pakistan and thus represents Iranian architecture. Of course, these regions are also heavily influenced by Turkic groups, but not in this particular case. As for Afghans, the majority are Iranian or Iranian speaking (Pashtuns, Tajiks, Hazaras, and others). It's more or less meant to represent the faith of the majority of Iranian peoples and that mosque was chosen as it is located in a region that predominantly Iranian in Afghanistan and was not meant to exclude other Afghans at all. Hope that clears things up. Tombseye 02:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Iranian peoples" ?
Is that even grammatically correct? (Havermayer 04:35, 10 December 2006 (UTC)).
- Yes. Mgiganteus1 04:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- one ethic/cultural group = a people. Multiple ethic/cultural groups = peoples. --Krsont 21:24, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Large claims
The article says: "the Achaemenid Persians established the world's first multi-national state." Not sure this is true - even the Babylonian Empire was multi-national. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by PiCo (talk • contribs) 05:43, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
- +the Assyrian Empire that was destroyed by the Persians before setting up their own. Wandalstouring 08:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- The Babylonians and the Assyrians were certainly not "multi-national" states since they did not respect the ethnicities and religious variations (expelling of the Jews). The main difference between them and the Persian Empire is that the Persian Empire had an official status and an "inter-ethnical" and "inter-religious" (also referred to as “tolerant” in history books) administration that Babylonians and Assyrians didn't have. That is why the Persian Empire is multi-national- Also the Iranian world (or Aryan world) was much larger than the Babylonian or Assyrian ones. It was therefore easier to expand it and bring new traditions and cultures from the East (Central Asia, Eurasia).
[edit] Infamous Amazons
could someone please tell me why the Amazons are infamous? OK there is a nasty story that the cut one of their breasts of but on the other hand there are TV-hits like Xenia. Wandalstouring 08:47, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah. "...the Scythian-Sarmatian nomads... gave birth to the infamous Amazons". Seems to be speculative and out of NPOV (infamous), I would like to see some reliable source provided. --Brand спойт 13:11, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- Help! did anyone read the link provided?! and this is on the main page now...do u READ these articles before u put them on??? There is no single bit that evidences that the greek myth is derived from the samartians or whoever...on the contrary! And it is not even claimed, too! Nor is there detailed evidence for warrior women in the link --84.159.189.201 14:31, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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- I reworded this section and added a more extensive article from World Archaeology that discusses the link between the Amazons of Greek legend and the Scytho-Sarmatians. Also added further references on the subject of warrior women of the steppes who should be mentioned in some capacity as it has received a lot of attention from historians and academics. Tombseye 16:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Amazons
"Some tribes of Sarmatians are also identified as the Amazons of Greek legend,"
No, they are not. Give a source! The ref says the opposite.
"warrior women believed to have lived in a...society in which both men and women took part in war,"
No. that does not apply to the greek Amazons, and there are no other "Amazons"
"and whose existence has been supported by recently-uncovered archaeological and genetic evidence."
No. The existence of some warrior women in Sarmatian culture (much too late) may have been evidenced. Still the source is very poor.
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[edit] unclear reference?
the line "The first is a Bronze Age mentioning by an Iranian tribe..." does not appear to be very clear to me. does the "first" refer to the "scant references to these early Proto-Iranian invaders in the early writings..." discussed in the previous paragraph? if so, then the two sentences are too far removed from each other for the link to be clear, especially since the intermediate sentences move away from "references" to discussing other matters. Doldrums 15:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
the sentence "Due the racial structure the Volga Tatars, Chuvashes and Crimean Tatars, as well as some other Turkic Euriopeans were derived not only from Turks, but also form Western Iranians." is not grammatically correct. Doldrums 16:16, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
- I took it out. Racialist theories seem a bit dubious in this case anyway. Tombseye 17:42, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] vandalism and nonsense
with all the vandalism and nonsense added to the article (as a result of its featured status), who is going to be able to figure out what of value was lost and needs to be recovered? Is someone going to read and compare every word before/after its being featured? Should this article be semi-protected, at least? Hmains 19:41, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Congrads
Tabreek!
Congrads for featured status!
Thanks for the zahamaat of all those involved!--Zereshk 23:03, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Racism
The trouble is, this article is inherently racist - it identifies the speakers of a language (or group of language) as possessing a unique identity, and seeks other markers to reinforce that identity. This is the same line taken by the Nazis to support their ideas of the Aryan super-race, and flows from the same fallacy - that languages can be identified with their speakers. Linguists have long given up this idea, but it lingers in the populqar culture and in pseudo-scholarship - which, I'm afraid, is what this article is. PiCo 04:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
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- Please see Germanic peoples, Celts, Greeks, Slavs, Turkic people etc etc. --K a s h Talk | email 10:36, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Roots"
the article seems to be in need of a thorough review in general. I trimmed the "History" section a little bit. The "Roots" section should only treat prehistory, that is, Proto-Indo-Iranian up to Eastern:Western split. Scythians, Sarmatians and Achaemenids belong in the Eastern and Western sections respectively. It is not known where Avestan was spoken, and "Avestans" is not used as an ethnonym. Strictly speaking, it is not established that Avestan was really an "Eastern" dialect, but I admit it is typically classified as such. It is ludicrous to include speculations on the Amazons in this summary. Note that we have the Ancient Iranian peoples article, where these early times can be treated in full detail; the "Roots" section should only give a brief summary of that per WP:SS. dab (𒁳) 11:28, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The Zoroastrian picture is pointless
What is the point of the Zoroastrian picture of a Guardian Spirit? You might as well put that in, a picture of Jesus (as), a picture of Imam Ali (as), and whatever else represents the Iranians' religion. It's pointless. Armyrifle 00:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Pronunciation
Can someone add a pronunciation header on the page? Is it e-RAHN-ian or eye-RAIN-ian? --Liface 22:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
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