Talk:Joe Morgan

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Contents 1 College degree 2 HR 200 & Steal 500 3 Fans opinion 4 firejoemorgan.blogspot.com 5 Sabermetric critics 6 Moneyball 7 "Second Greatest Second Baseman?"

[edit] College degree

Any information about his college degree? Monolith70 01:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] HR 200 & Steal 500

What year did Morgan score HR #200 & steal #500, which made him first player do to it? Trekphiler 07:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

Looking at www.baseball-reference.com, I think HR #200 came in 1978, and SB #500 came in 1976.--Priceyeah 07:45, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fans opinion

this guy is pretty much hated by baseball fans, especially Oakland, shouldnt this make an appearance in his page?

What is he hated for? If you can find a reference, by all means include it! Phoenixrod 05:18, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

He is hated for several reasons: his poor (and often nonexistent) analysis of games, his irrational hatred for Moneyball and his general lack of understanding of the book, his refusal to listen to any ideas about baseball from non-former players, and the list goes on. For further evidence, I invite you to visit the archives of the blog http://firejoemorgan.blogspot.com. I really think there should be something in here about how reviled he is, but I'm not sure how it should go.Texinian 05:02, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] firejoemorgan.blogspot.com

I think the firejoemorgan.blogspot.com website is kind of ridiculous. While his distaste for statistics (and sabermetrics) should be mentioned, that website is a little extreme. I'm not defending him, but he focuses more on how the player plays the game rather than how a manager should.

I have no idea what you mean by a little extreme. They take excerpts of his from broadcasts and online chats with fans and tear them apart. This guy has absolutely no idea what he is talking about when it comes to baseball. I wish he was stuck with the Cleveland Indians during the 70s so he could still hit great and have a 1,000 less career RBIs and then by his standards we can call him a non-HOF caliber player.

I don't think firejoemorgan.com is great evidence of an "anti-Joe Morgan movement". He does have critics, so mention them, those who disaprove of his dismissal of sabermetrics. Besides that this section just seems like a lot of self promotion for the website. I think mention of such criticism should be condensed and merged with the moneyball section to one section, critics or maybe criticism. Either way I don't think firejoemorgan.com should have it's own section let alone be lone evidence of a movement of angry baseball fans against him. Jtolman 16:44, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

He is widely disliked. Beyond the fact that his commentary is insipid, he is lazy, he shows up late to his online chats (when he can be bothered to show up at all) and his remarks about Moneyball have really pissed off the SABR types.

Ok, I no one has pointed out any indication of a movement against him except one blog. Either way, by all means it should be mentioned in the article that he has critics, and what they dislike about him, but I just don't see what place an excerpt of a chat including (somewhat biased) commentary has in a wikipedia article. I don't care keep it in the article or whatever, just seems kind of petty and misplaced on a wikipedia article. Jtolman 03:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that too much of the article is discussing Morgan's critics, and their campaign against him. Placing that commentary in the midst of the article is in violation of NPOV, in my opinion. A simple statement that Morgan has critics who disapprove of XYZ. I'd echo Jtolman's statements in toto. CraigBurley 12:51, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Just to reiterate... from the guidelines... "Biographies of living people should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." I think on those grounds that the FJM stuff should be shortened and the excerpt definitely removed. Also, given that FJM tends to use a "sabermetric" or "Moneyball" approach to its criticism, I think it can be moved to the "Moneyball" stuff. Since this is a very small part of Joe Morgan's work but occupies most of the article, it can probably be cut down as well. I'll take a shot at an edit now. CraigBurley 15:58, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

• To start off, I should say that I may be somewhat biased -- I'm a loyal reader of the Fire Joe Morgan blog. That said, I think it should have a little more coverage, though I'm not exactly sure how best to do it. Certainly all that had been in this article was excessive -- especially the exerpt -- but I think a little more should be devoted. Would it be better to have an article devoted to the blog itself that could be referenced here? They've gotten some press (written up in Sports Illustrated last summer, for instance). I'd have to check the notability policy to be sure if this qualifies, however. Thoughts? ~~ Meeples 06:35, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

It's just that it's almost completely irrelevant to the subject of Joe Morgan, is all. If you were writing a book-length biography of Joe Morgan, FJM might merit three lines out of two or three chapters on his broadcasting/media career. It's entirely irrelevant to his central achievements; yes, it's important to discuss that Morgan has critics, but that (and providing a link showing that criticism) really should be plenty. CraigBurley 16:06, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

• Makes sense, though he isn't very good at his job (but comments such as that seem to go against the biography policy here). What about making a separate page for the site? I suppose this isn't the best place to ask that question, but it'd be nice to get some input. ~~ Meeples 16:39, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sabermetric critics

We're back to more of this stuff about Morgan's fight with his sabermetric critics. This stuff is not in any way relevant to Joe Morgan. There is too much emphasis in the article on this stuff, instead of his very substantial impact as a player. This material should be cut down... long quotes and extensive discussion of attitudes towards sabermetric dogmas should be reduced almost completely. Would whoever is adding this stuff please let us know his/her view on why it's useful? CraigBurley 14:24, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

• Morgan has gained large notability in current baseball culture as an analyst. He's also gained a lot of critics. I agree that there should not be an overemphasis on this criticism here, but if it can't be mentioned here and an article on such criticism (such as firejoemorgan.com) is apparently non-notable, where is such material to be placed? ~~ Meeples (talk)(email) 17:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Not for nothing, but given that firejoemorgan.com won Sports Illustrated's 2006 Media Award for best noncorporate sports website, doesn't that make them notable? TheyCallMeBruce

[edit] Moneyball

Honestly, this section should be removed since it isn't relevant in anyway. We should also remove the Wiki's assertion that "small ball" has been refuted by many people as well. Everything is refuted.--Fayettehelle,NC 15:41, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Regarding "Ironically"... let me repeat that it is NOT "ironic" that Morgan was a good "saber" player but doesn't believe in sabermetric orthodoxy. Irony is a literary/rhetorical device. It has nothing to do with this. See wikipedia's entry on irony if you want to understand why. Morgan's stance against sabermetric dogmas is not itself ironic and is not intended ironically. If you mean that it's ironic in a tragic sense, to describe it as such would violate NPOV because it would assume that sabermetric dogmas are true and Morgan's views are false. I'm changing it back. CraigBurley 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

• Perhaps you could explain to me how this instance does not fit into "situational" irony. I highly doubt anyone took the phrase in a literal, "tragic" sense. ~~ Meeples (talk)(email) 17:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

• The section completely violates the NPOV undue weight policy-look it up. His little known (to the general public) feud with sabermetricians is covered in almost greater detail than his entire playing and broadcast career. Please look up NPOV undue weight policy.Quadzilla99 15:31, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Second Greatest Second Baseman?"

I have a problem with the statement that Morgan is "considered by many as the second greatest second basemen to have played the game, Ryne Sandberg being the best." Morgan is almost universally considered better than Sandberg:

-Bill James rates Morgan as the greatest second baseman ever (2000) -Total Baseball rates Morgan well ahead of Sandberg (20 wins above an average player) (1998) -SABR rated Morgan well ahead of Sandberg in a pool of the greatest baseball players ever (conducted in 1999) -The MLB All-Century Team voting placed Morgan third among all second basemen, with Sandberg not making the top 8 (1999) -The Sporting News placed Morgan among the top 100 players of all time, but not Sandberg (1998)

That statement just needs to be removed. Caspian88 17:34, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

If you ever look at Rogers Hornsby on MLB.com he was actually finishing ahead of Babe Ruth in slugging percentage for many years. He hit .401 over a 5 year period. If anything his career took a downward turn for many years and he still hit .358 over around 8,000 at bats.

That's before we ever talk about the achievements Jeff Kent.

Admitted all of that is irrelevant, but there's substantial argument (not evidence) that Morgan is not in the top two ever. Mglovesfun 03:02, 5 October 2006 (UTC)