Talk:Mizu shōbai

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Mizu shōbai is part of WikiProject Japan, a project to improve all Japan-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other Japan-related articles, please join the project. All interested editors are welcome.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
Japan To-do: edit purge Improve to Featured status Japan Improve ASIMO Burakumin and Buraku Liberation League Takako Doi Chikamatsu Monzaemon Education in Japan Japanese architecture Japanese art Japanese robotics Japanese strategic planning for the Pacific (1905-1940) List of Emperors of Japan (transl. from ja) Emperor Yozei of Japan List of Japanese artists Namioka, Aomori Nihonjinron Sadako Ogata Ōishi Yoshio Politics of Japan Yagyu Shinkage-ryu Center Shiken (大学入試センター試験) More... Review First Sino-Japanese War Hinduism in Japan Inland Sea Kigo Narihira Santosen Temple Sazae-san Stroke order Heizo Takenaka Giovanni Battista Sidotti Requests See Requested articles Listed for deletion See this page, this page, and this page for lists. Grammar corrections Gaijin Takefuji Need images Every prefecture, see Subdivisions of Japan Sendai - Add demographic images More... Translate from Japanese Wikipedia Iemoto (家元) Blue Ribbon Award (Film) (ブルーリボン賞 (映画)) Gesaku (ja:戯作) More... Transliterations missing for Military ranks and insignia of the Japan Self-Defense Forces Wikify Ibaraki University Ikawa, Shizuoka Ima, Ai ni Yukimasu Japanese sculpture Mori Goro Organization of the Imperial Japanese Central China Army Organization of the Imperial Japanese North China Army Sangaria Shaken Takefuji Vote: Talk:Dokdo#Rename vote Watch this list — Edit this list

Excuse my French, but this "etymology" is total bullshit:

A nation famous for its onsens (natural hot springs), recreational sex has long been associated with water in Japan. While the actual origin of the term mizu shobai is debatable, it is likely the term came into use during the Tokugawa shogunate (1603-1868). The Tokugawa period saw the development of large bathhouses, an expansive network of roadside inns offering hot baths and sexual release, and the expansion of geisha districts and courtesan quarters in cities and towns throughout the country.

Compare this to the Japanese version:

「水」は「勝負は水物だ」と言われるような、運次第で大きな利益を得たり、逆に損失をこうむるなど、日々（時々）の収入があてにならない状態を指している。飲食店、風俗店は景気の良し悪し、天候、客の気まぐれなどによって収益が大きく左右されるものである。 また、酒類をまるで水のように扱うという所から、接客を伴う飲食業を「水商売」と称するようになったとも言われている。

That is, it's called the "water trade" because it deals with ephemeral products and sensations, as opposed to clay pots and bolts of silk or whatever. I've removed the section for now. Jpatokal 04:51, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

"Total bullshit"? By saying the "origin of the term is debatable", meant that it is debatable. But thanks for your thoughtful and articulate contribution. Not sure what you mean by "clay pots and bolts of silk". Also not sure what makes the "Japanese version" from ja.wikipedia more correct. Will re-write the section with additional info sometime soon - and try to avoid another section of total bullshit. Drcwright 21:52, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. If there's a genuine debate about the term's origin, then please provide references. Jpatokal 06:20, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we're debating it right now. ;-) The "debatableness" was taken from the Lafayette article noted in References. One site also claims it got its name because "the business usual took place on riverbanks". Yep. Drcwright 09:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

What was meant, I assume, by the reference to silk and clay is that unlike solid objects which can be bought and sold and kept and stored and counted, water is ephemeral. A rain puddle can evaporate over a day, and similarly, the courtesan world comes and goes and shifts and flows... a pot or a bolt of silk, once bought, can be kept. One night with a courtesan only lasts one night, and all you're left with afterwards is memories. There are a great many ways of explaining the metaphor, and I'm not a good writer, not good at describing the idea. But I think that's basically what it's all about - kind of like the idea of the floating world. LordAmeth 21:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge hostess bar into mizu shobai?

Both articles need work. TomorrowTime on the Hostess bar discussion page has some good points for. Drcwright 23:39, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Oppose. Mizu shobai is a much wider term. Jpatokal 12:21, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is a much wider term... which hostess/etc bars fall under. The question is whether to make Hostess bar a section within it. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drcwright (talk • contribs) 08:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Yes, oppose. "Mizu Shobai" includes ALL of the so-called 'sex industry' and the hostess club phenomenon is a small and unique part of it. 130.49.6.243 18:23, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK. While I don't agree that mizushobai includes ALL of the so-called 'sex industry' (I've spoken to a number of people here who say it doesn't), I've removed the merge tags. Drcwright 03:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

It may be a dead conversation, but just for the record, I also vote against merging. Mizu shobai, referring to the Edo period sex trade, therefore encompasses within it an entirely separate set of things from just the modern-day hostess bars and red light districts. 21st century whores are not 18th century yujo. LordAmeth 21:59, 6 March 2007 (UTC)