Talk:Nolan Ryan

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	To-do list for Nolan Ryan:	edit  · history  · watch  · refresh
Expand even more into Nolan's playing career. A paragraph for his days with each team he played for won't suffice. Get references and citations for Criticisms section of the article. A few more images? Possibly a close-up? Expand Legacy section of the article. Currently, it just mostly contains comparisons between him and Sandy Koufax. --Nishkid64 00:55, 10 September 2006 (UTC) I'm happy to get more cites for the criticisms section, mostly to baseball-almanac.com, I suspect. But what about the rest of the article? There are NO cites anywhere in it. Basicly, I'm working with an article written by someone who had a slavish devotion to Ryan. I'm trying to make it more balanced--Ryan was a great, but flawed pitcher. The rest of the article needs references. What do you mean, a paragraph for each team? There's several for each team. As for the Legacy section, I think it is going to have to be totally overhauled.--Wehwalt 10:36, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

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Contents 1 Contract signing 2 professional? 3 name? 4 Is that picture really in Atlanta? 5 Better Picture? 6 No Longer Living in Alvin 7 Wins and Losses 8 End of lead 9 Wins and Losses 10 WP:WEASEL 11 Fastball speeds: Ryan vs. Wohlers and Zumaya

[edit] Contract signing

Despite what this and many other Nolan Ryan entries on random encyclopedia websites say, Nolan Ryan signed his $1 million dollar contract in 1979. It was for the 1980-1982 season, but it was signed in 1979. I found this information on Nolan Ryan's website at http://www.nolanryan.net and on The Nolan Ryan Express website at http://www.smackbomb.com/nolanryan/astros.html. I also have a baseball card stating that this is the year of his signing. -User:Wellsjc

[edit] professional?

"The normally light-hitting Ryan got his 'Stros years started..."

Spell astros out? User:70.253.99.146 04:02, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• What's stopping you? Wahkeenah 14:22, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

• • I agree with Wahkeenah. That is purely stylistic. If you like it better spelled out, go for it. Since the word "Astros" is used earlier in the paragraph, it is most unlikely anyone will be confused either way.--Wehwalt 16:32, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] name?

I always thought he was Lynn Nolan Ryan III, not Jr. Mistaken memory?

--24.103.207.38 06:53, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Seems to be. Baseball Reference has him as Jr, as does Britannica. The Round Rock Express, the team he owns, list him as Jr on their web page. -- GWO

OK, that's what it looks like. Thanks for the quick response. --24.103.207.38 14:53, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Is that picture really in Atlanta?

The picture showing Nolan Ryan pitching in Atlanta may NOT have been taken in Atlanta.

For 1, they are wearing white, not common for away teams.

2. The stadium doesn't match up to what Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium looks like... User:4.23.110.60 15:05, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

• I took the photo, and it was in Atlanta. Wahkeenah 17:07, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Following up: 1. Notice the plain shirt front and the yellow and orange stripes on the tops of the arms. That was the Astros road jersey in 1983. The home jersey had a wide band of yellow and orange stripes around the midsection, from just below the word "Astros" all the way down. 2. What the stadium "looks like" is what it is - a parking lot. It underwent various changes over the years. This just happens to be what it looked like in the summer of 1983. Wahkeenah 22:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
• Further followup: Notice the slightly stylized "330" in the left field corner, which was unique to Atlanta Stadium. Also, notice the folded-up football seats behind the left-center field fence, the specific shape also unique to Atlanta Stadium. Wahkeenah 22:39, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Better Picture?

Is it possible to get a better picture of Ryan? I could see the current picture remaining as an additional picture, but surely one showing a close up of his face so people can actually see what he looks like would be appropriate. - Livingston 05:32, 05 May 2006 (UTC)

• They had a pretty good one, from a magazine cover, but some self-styled copyright policeman decided that free advertising for a magazine is not fair use, so they took it away. Wahkeenah 05:37, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Longer Living in Alvin

Ryan was born in Refugio, Texas, but his family moved to the Houston suburb of Alvin when he was six weeks old; he has lived there to this day.

I'm removing the last part of the sentence--He moved out of Alvin a few years ago. --DMAJohnson 03:34, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wins and Losses

Using stats to push your point of view is bogus. How about bringing up that Cy Young lost over 300 games, and that Koufax's career was much shorter, and that a pitcher only pitches every fourth day at best and even if he wins *every game*, that's only 40 wins, and a team needs 90-100 to win the pennant. And Bavasi is the guy who got canned for saying on national TV that blacks lack what it takes to be in the front office, so, yeh, his viewpoint has a lot of credibility, yeh, sure. Wahkeenah 13:41, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• The thing is, that Ryan has been criticized for his minimal winning percentage. Only two teams have won a pennant with a winning percentage worse than Ryan's. (.527). I am happy to note that Young lost over 300 games, I do note that he was 195 games over .500, and I do note (as does another part of the article) that Koufax pitched a shorter period of time. But, for each of the four teams Ryan pitched for, he hovered around .500. As for Bavasi's statements, one can easily review the article on him. He said what he did, but he was also in baseball for many years. As for Ryan and postseason, it is fair comment regarding an athlete how many "rings" he got. For example, Patrick Ewing never won an NBA championship, and that is a knock on an otherwise fine career. To say that Ryan only won one ring, and that as a rookie on a team to which his contributions were relatively small (yes, I know he won one game against the Braves and pitched well in theSeries) is fair comment. Ryan's strikeouts are a legacy, beyond doubt. But they did NOT translate (as one might think) into pitching dominance. If you want an article that is entirely a puff piece, fine. I note that statistics are used elsewhere in the article to build up Ryan.

Incidently, I like Ryan. I'm proud I saw him pitch twice in his career, a great pitcher's duel in the 86 playoffs against the Mets he got a no decision in, and once at Camden Yards his final year. But there needs to be context.--Wehwalt 13:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• Then you should do some research on his teams' overall winning percentage for the years he was with them, vs. that of the teams that Koufax and Young were on during their times. I have no idea what the specific results would be. But my hunch is that the Dodgers during the Koufax years overall had a much higher winning percentage than some of the dog teams Ryan was stuck with. And I have also read criticism of Cy Young, that he wasn't necessarily that great a pitcher, he was just a workhorse over a long stretch of time, who happened to be on some pretty good teams from time to time. Ernie Banks was never on a champion, either, and he played every day, not every fourth or fifth day, but this knock is not put on him. In baseball, there is only so much one individual can do, even a pitcher. I'm glad you like Ryan, though. He was one of a kind. Wahkeenah 14:49, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

• • Koufax is a difficult case himself, as his early years (during which the Dodgers did win a couple of pennants) he wasn't a great pitcher, but he later blossomed. Young is harder to judge, because of the uncertainties of pre-1901 baseball, but he did put up a winning percentage of over .600. Those references I put in discuss Ferguson Jenkins and Walter Johnson, both of whom are comperable to Ryan in playing for mediocre teams. Ryan comes off worse. I agree Ryan was one of a kind, and as I said I'm proud to have seen him pitch, though he won neither of the games I saw him in. But I think my paragraph is referenced and fair. I would have no trouble with you rebutting it with an additional paragraph, so the "Legacy" section doesn't end like that, or we could put it in a seperate section called "Criticism". What do you think?--Wehwalt 15:09, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
• A rebuttal comment would be good, when I can formulate one. The one time I saw Ryan pitch was in Atlanta. Through 8 innings, he had thrown a 2-hitter against the Braves... both of them home runs, the bane of fastball pitchers (such as Fergie). The 'Stros struggled but managed to get 4 runs from their 11 hits and won the game. [1], with "closers" hanging on to finish off the Braves. That seemed like a fairly typical Ryan outing: good pitching, moderate support. What if he could have pitched for teams like the Yankees or the Dodgers in his prime? Wahkeenah 15:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
  • Then I think we wouldn't be having this discussion, one way or the other!--Wehwalt 16:07, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
    • Yes. To put it another way, what if Koufax had spent his entire career with the Phillies? Of course, then maybe they would have won that extra win or two they needed in 1964. Wahkeenah 16:46, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] End of lead

It says "Ryan is also the all-time leader in no-hitters with seven, which is at least three more than any other pitcher, and tied with Bob Feller for the most one-hitters with twelve". This makes no sense. Is he tied with Feller or did Feller get twelve (or did they both get twelve)? josh (talk) 02:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

• See the Bob Feller page. Feller had 12 one-hitters, to set the record. Nolan Ryan also had 12, so they now share the record. Feller had 3 no-hitters, Sandy Koufax had 4, and Ryan had 7. Probably the sentence could be worded a little better. Gofer it. Wahkeenah 03:30, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

"100 MPH Club"

Billy Wagner 101 MPH at Turner Field on July 30, 2003 Photo by Clinton Plaza

In Order by Fastest Observed Speed (Listing Has Only The Fastest Known Speed by the Pitcher )

Pitcher

Radar Speed
Date
Location

Mark Wohlers

103.0 mph
1995
Spring Training

Joel Zumaya

103.0 mph
07-04-2006
McAfee Coliseum

Armando Benitez

102.0 mph
05-24-2002
Shea Stadium

Bobby Jenks

102.0 mph
08-27-2005
Safeco Field

Randy Johnson

102.0 mph
07-09-2004
Pacific Bell Park

Robb Nen

102.0 mph
10-23-1997
Jacobs Field

A.J. Burnett

101.0 mph
05-31-2005
PNC Park

Rob Dibble

101.0 mph
06-08-1992
Candlestick Park

Kyle Farnsworth

101.0 mph
05-26-2004
Minute Maid Park

Eric Gagne

101.0 mph
04-16-2004
Pacific Bell Park

Jose Mesa

101.0 mph
05-01-1993
Cleveland Stadium

Guillermo Mota

101.0 mph
07-24-2002
Qualcomm Stadium

Justin Verlander

101.0 mph
05-10-2006
Camden Yards

Billy Wagner

101.0 mph
06-11-2003
Yankee Stadium

Nolan Ryan

100.9 mph
08-20-1974
Anaheim Stadium

Josh Beckett

100.0 mph
10-12-2003
Pro Player Park

Daniel Cabrera

100.0 mph
05-09-2005
Camden Yards

Roger Clemens

100.0 mph
10-10-2001
Yankee Stadium

Bartolo Colon

100.0 mph
10-06-1999
Jacobs Field

Francisco Cordero

100.0 mph
07-07-2004
Jacobs Field

Rich Harden

100.0 mph
05-27-2005
McAfee Stadium

Jorge Julio

100.0 mph
09-16-2004
Skydome

J.R. Richard

100.0 mph
05-25-1976
Candlestick Park

C.C. Sabathia

100.0 mph
06-28-2002
Jacobs Field

Ben Sheets

100.0 mph
07-10-2004
Miller Park

Derrick Turnbow

100.0 mph
05-27-2005
Miller Park

Kerry Wood

100.0 mph
08-10-2005
Wrigley Field

[edit] Wins and Losses

It is unfair to compare Ryan's supposed lack of impact on his teams by comparing him to Walter Johnson, one of the greatest pitchers in history. You would need to put it in context of every other Hall of Fame pitcher's impact on his team. For example, Ned Garver won 20 when his St. Louis Browns only won 52 all year in 1951. Does that mean Garver is more deserving of the the Hall of Fame than Ryan is? Without the proper context, you're simply pushing a derogatory viewpoint of Ryan. Wahkeenah 03:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggest you add context then. Which is what you agreed to do some months ago. Instead you slashed it all out.--Wehwalt 10:09, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It is you that keeps pushing this prejudicial point of view, and it's up to you to do the research on it to remove the POV aspect of it. Wahkeenah 17:21, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Fine. Now it just recapitulates what is in the two articles cited. Can I remind you that this paragraph cites the only two external sources in the article? So stop saying it is OR. If it is, then delete the whole article and start over, or else start footnoting!--Wehwalt 19:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's still bogus. They have selected a particular very short list of Hall of Fame pitchers, at which Ryan places last, and have used that to question his credentials. They have no business doing that unless they rank ALL Hall of Fame pitchers. It's gone. Wahkeenah 22:55, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It's back. If you think it is biased, add a comment. Do not delete facts which might be of interest to readers. Wikipedia is not about slavish devotion. I suggest that others get into this. You complained about OR. I solved that. So now it is just "bogus".--Wehwalt 23:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I protected the page instead of blocking both of you for revert warning. Settle this in talk. Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 23:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you. I think the facts should remain. If Wahkeenah thinks additional facts should go in there, I'm fine with that. But these are legit articles, based on sabermetrics. Or I could note that there is at least one HOF pitcher--Red Ruffing--with a Wins over Team percentage worse than Ryan.--Wehwalt 23:32, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I see you got one of your buddies to lock the page. Here's the deal: those figger filberts have selected a particular sample, and a particular (and misleading) stat of "wins and losses" to try to demonstrate that Ryan does not belong in the Hall of Fame. Dizzy Dean had a huge winning percentage of .672 while Cy Young's percentage was only .617, so I reckon it should be called the Dizzy Dean Award then, eh? However, Diz had half the wins that Ryan had, because he flamed out his arm fairly early. You can't judge just on wins and losses. You have to look at something that's a truer measure of a pitcher's skill, such as ERA. Ted Lyons 3.67 - Ferguson Jenkins 3.34 - Nolan Ryan 3.19 - Lefty Grove 3.06 - Walter Johnson 2.17. Suddenly Ryan is in the middle of that very small pack instead of trailing. Maybe that's worth mentioning in the article. Oh, but wait, that would undercut your premise... that a pitcher is somehow responsible for how many runs his own team scores. Wahkeenah 23:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I didn't get ANYONE to do ANYTHING. Let me just repeat: this is in a section marked "Criticisms". In such a section, which is legit in an article, you put--criticisms. If you want to rebut what I said with your stats you just posted, I'm OK with that.--Wehwalt 23:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, citing an article to push a point of view is still against the rules. But I've had enough of you. This page is yours now, I'm not watching it anymore. Push your hatred of Nolan Ryan all day long. And tell your pal to unlock it. I'm done with it. Wahkeenah 23:56, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

For everyone s information, I went to Bill James' Historical Baseball Abstract (1984) and found other Hall of Fame pitchers' percentage above team's winning percentage (personal winning percentage minus team's winning percentage in games in which that pitcher is not pitching). Ryan was .021. Other starting pitchers in the H of F in James' book (he includes most 20th century HoF pitchers, as of 1984, plus current pitchers who seemed likely to make it) are: Cy Young .125, Rube Waddell .048, Jack Chesbro .074, Joe McGinnity .070, Christy Mathewson .106, Eddie Plank .064, Addie Joss .109, Three Finger Brown .063, Chief Bender .048, Ed Walsh .097, Walter Johnson .139, Rube Marquand .003, Grover Cleveland Alexander .140, Eppa Rixey .013, Stan Covelski .053, Red Faber .061, Dazzy Vance .108, Burleigh Grimes .032, Waite Hoyt -.021, Ted Lyons .089, Red Ruffing -.006, Lefty Grove .119, Carl Hubbell .078, Lefty Gomez .013, Dizzy Dean .107, Bob Feller .080, Hal Newhouser .051, Early Wynn .010, Warren Spahn .071, Bob Lemon .029, Robin Roberts .063, Whitey Ford .103, Sandy Koufax .111, Jim Bunning .047, Don Drysdale .013, Bob Gibson .075, Juan Marichal .095, Gaylord Perry .044, Phil Neikro .061, Jim Palmer .059. While of course this is only one factor, Ryan's percentage is rather low. Incidently, Drysdale's career was marred by similar complaints.--Wehwalt 20:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:WEASEL

This article continues to be stuffed with unsupported opinion, both pro and con, disguised as "Some say" and similar circumlocutions. This violates WP guidelines. As time permits, I am going to go through the article and try to get rid of them, where I can't come up with an actual source.--Wehwalt 10:33, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, some of the sources are in Lexis-Nexis. I am not going to violate my terms of service agreement and copy the article, but instead a reference should be sufficient for one to look it up and word accordingly. I am disappointed that you refuse to assume good faith (see WP:AGF) regarding my contributions and as such ask that you not delete what was in the article for some time, without complaint, until you look at the articles in question. Calwatch 03:25, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I am not required to look up paid articles. You really shouldn't cite to them, since they are not reaily verifiable. My major complaint is that much of it is opinion. Why do you insist on the language about Ryan confirming his reputation as a strong, competitive Texan? Maybe he is and maybe he isn't. I left the facts in there. Only opinion and weasel words were deleted. And good faith works both ways. You are insisting on specific language and refusing to accept edits to that language. And saying "according to baseball columnists" doesn't help. It is still weasel.--Wehwalt 03:38, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

<excerpts deleted to avoid copyright infringement> Calwatch 02:33, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent. I suggest you dump the "strong competitive Texan" thing, which is SOMEONE's opinion an include the facts from the article. Certainly, the quote that he is competitive should be in the article, but perhaps in the Legacy section. I'll leave you to do it in a reasonable time.--Wehwalt 03:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

By the way, per wikipedia policy, print articles are equally as verifiable. Please reread WP:V and note that I have provided the date, page number, author, publication, and name of article. Per WP:RS, The burden of evidence lies with the editor who has made the edit in question, and I have done so, and excerpted pieces of the articles above. This is a common misperception of wikipedia (that all sources have to or should be online) and one that very much needs to be corrected. Calwatch 03:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

True. But I think you need to stick to the facts and avoid opinions and conclusions. I've tried to make this article middle of the road regarding Ryan, who is somewhat controversial due to the varied nature of his statistics--low winning percentage and so forth. Just because "baseball columnists" say something (by the way, I don't see that in the excerpts) doesn't make it so, or make it worth noting. It is like saying "some fans say", it is weasel wording to promote a point of view.--Wehwalt 12:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fastball speeds: Ryan vs. Wohlers and Zumaya

Nolan Ryan currently has the Guinness world record for the fastest fastball ever thrown, at 101 MPH. However, Mark Wohlers was unofficially clocked at 103; Joel Zumaya is consistently clocked in the 101-103 range on television speedguns, occasionally reaching 104. With Zumaya's increased prominence due to the playoffs this year, the topic of whether or not Zumaya or Ryan should hold the record is starting to come up more. Perhaps this article should address Ryan's fastballs in more detail; this would be a good time to add a section on that, if there's anyone watching the article right now who knows of some good sources for that information. --Idont Havaname (Talk) 05:26, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what we can add. Ryan threw overpowering fastballs, extremely fast. I don't know why Guinness continues to recognize him. A discussion of Guinness' standards for recognizing records is germane to THAT article.--Wehwalt 13:15, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Ryan's is still recognized as the fastest because his fastball was measured with a calibrated IR radar, as opposed to a stadium gun.