Talk:Origins of baseball

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Contents 1 Delhi Gazette 2 Thomas Wilson 3 Century mismatch? 4 Stoolball = Three Legs? 5 Baseball references prior to 1839 6 Al Spalding 7 Assessment 8 See also, External links, Notes, References 9 Cricket

[edit] Delhi Gazette

Delhi Gazette might be Delhi, New York. Or it could be perfectly spurious. Then again it could be the very proof that was needed that Indians invented baseball. And I don't mean Cleveland Indians either... Wetman 04:44, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The whole Delhi Gazette section should be eliminated. The term base ball apparently was in use prior to 1800, so use of that term in 1825 is not significant. More elaboration of games played prior to 1850 would be interesting, though. The article should make clear that townball was different from the game invented by Cartwright in 1845. Townball came first. Questions the article should answer: How was townball played? How did it develop? How did it differ from rounders? What other similar games were played at that time? How popular was townball? The article should also make it clearer that Abner Doubleday had nothing to do with inventing baseball. Bluelion 05:50, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like it's not a kosher Delhi. Wahkeenah 00:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Wilson

The link for Thomas Wilson the English puritan who opposed Baseball, is actually a link to the page for Thomas Wilson, the Ziggy cartoonist!

[edit] Century mismatch?

Throughout the second half of the 18th century, debates raged over the origins of baseball. To end the arguments and speculation, Spalding organized a panel in 1907.

If Doubleday invented baseball in 1839, how can debates rage about the sport's origins in the 18th century? Shouldn't it be the 19th century? PhoenixV 16:27, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes. But this is obsolete and trivial. May it be deleted? --P64 02:29, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Doubleday did not invent baseball. Kingturtle 23:21, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

• Right. Except it should read 19th century. If it still reads 18th, I'll fix it. Wahkeenah 00:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
• That question was raised almost two years ago. The current article does not make that statement. No hay problema. Wahkeenah 00:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stoolball = Three Legs?

National Stoolball Association

Ask them about it. Not that they are historical experts by any means, but they play with road-sign wickets. Nothing like a three legged stool.

See Hoerchner (1999). "Stoolball is Alive and Well in Sussex." (Stoolball is featured mainly late in the article.)

[edit] Baseball references prior to 1839

Not sure if this should be added or to where. In the Jane Austen novel Northanger Abbey, the heroine prefers both cricket and baseball to books. This was written in 1798. User:MrDenton 19:22, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

• See if you can find the exact quote, and then post it. Wahkeenah 00:08, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

• There's a glaring inconsistency here...

The English author Jane Austen specifically mentions the game of baseball in her novel, Northanger Abbey, being played by the protagonist, Catherine Moreland. The book was first written in 1798 and revised until publication in 1803

Another early print reference is Jane Austen's posthumous 1818 novel Northanger Abbey.

So which is it ? AtomBoy 15:57, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• Feel free to research it and find the answer. Wahkeenah 16:35, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Al Spalding

Spalding did not "invent" the Doubleday myth. Abner Graves of Denver, Colo. did. See Baseball Before We Knew It by David Block for a detailed account of the Graves story. --Leshii 02:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

• Graves wrote the letter, but Spalding used it to invent the myth. Wahkeenah 20:44, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I understand that, but the point is, Spalding would have never associated anything with Doubleday without the Graves letter. --Leshii 02:31, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Sure he would have. The letter merely gave him the "evidence" he was looking for. Wahkeenah 12:23, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • OK, I see your point. However, to say that Graves invented the Doubleday myth is incorrect. Spalding used Graves' letter to invent the Doubleday myth. Wahkeenah 12:24, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In fact, the article states clearly, already, that Graves authored the letter and that that letter was Spalding's sole "evidence". Spalding had a pre-set agenda of "proving" that the game was of American rather than British origin. Wahkeenah 13:48, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Assessment

This article had many authors. It growed and growed. Oops, that's baseball.

The whole needs reorganization. It reads like drafts by three people one after the other. There are some inconsistencies, of course, but the plague is repetitive coverage, deeper and shallower, here and there. Now I wonder how much should be done before some major reorganization. Before coming to that conclusion, I contributed.

Substantially, I mainly revised the Doubleday/Mills story to match the version by the NBHOFM. That should be checked. Mills not Spalding chaired the commission but Sullivan --the one apparent outsider-- I vaguely recall that he was a nonvoting hardworking Commission secretary.

[edit] See also, External links, Notes, References

Formally, I imposed that sequence, which an experienced editor recommended to me. Only two were present but I added the "See also" and "Notes" myself (unplanned but seeming appropriate). Previous editors called the last "Bibliography" not "References" and their usage may be correct here. If anything I have made it more correct although some of my References should be External links.

Essentially, I wanted to get the Pittsfield 1791, Stoolball 1999, and "Ball mit Freystaten" [1796]2001 material onto the 'net where Wikipedians can see it, for it is clear that many have missed it. Have at it. Latecomers, check the history for those links if they have been edited away (but administrators will delete this sentence if it breaks the rules). Seriously, all of the images are elsewhere so this is safe from copyright violation, as far as that goes. --P64 02:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cricket

A couple weeks ago I added a few American cricket listings to pre-1850s in sports: 1794, 1799, 1820, 1844. I doubt that those are the most important ones. See Talk: Pre-1850s in sports#Cricket and Baseball. --P64 02:01, 17 August 2006 (UTC)