Talk:Project MKULTRA

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Project MKULTRA is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article Milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.

This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on August 11, 2004.

Article Milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 24, 2003	Featured article candidate	Promoted
November 25, 2006	Featured article review	Demoted
Current Status: Former featured article

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This article is part of the WikiProject on Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants, set up to organize and expand entries on Psychedelics, dissociatives and deliriants as well as related subjects according to chemical type, effects, organic carriers, and cultural/historical uses. Please feel free to participate by editing this article and visiting the project page.

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[edit] older entries

The nomination for featured status for this article was on the FAC page, before they were divided, revision 05:24, 6 July 2003. There were no objections.

The original text for most of this article is taken from the US Federal Government web page at http://tis.eh.doe.gov/ohre/roadmap/achre/chap3_4.html and should therefore be in the public domain.

[edit] Ted Kaczynski and MKULTRA

When the Unabomber was still at Harvard he took part in some of the original MKULTRA experiments. Some people think this research "pushed him over the edge" and fueled his crusade against the evils of technology years afterward. Maybe this should be mentioned in the article somewhere. --71.112.154.172 03:32, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unclear Sentence

"It was first brought to wide public attention by the U.S. Congress (in the form of the Church Committee) and a presidential commission (known as the Rockefeller Commission) (see Revelation below) and also to the U.S. Senate."

This sentence does not read clearly. Ignoring the parenthetical references it reads: "It was first brought to wide public attention by the U.S. Congress and a presidential commission and also to the U.S. Senate."

The part I bolded above is the unclear part. I do not know enough about this subject to correct this article, but it does need to be addressed. Was "it" brought to the attention of the U.S. Senate similar to being brought to the attention of the wide public, or did the U.S. Senate help in some way to bring the attention to the wide public?

[edit] Citations

The "Experiments" section has no citations.

Yes, I think that this is important. Isn't this the crux of the whole article?

[edit] U.S. Dollars or Canadian??

Could someone please clarify whether the money paid out to the canadian victims was in canadian or U.S. dollars? Just add CD$ or US$

[edit] proper place for conspiracies to run free

trying to get a conspiracy based wiki up and running. http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikiconspiracy. check it out, add input. most of all help me get it running (I'm kinda amature over here)--Matt D 01:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Starting date of MKULTRA

Operation Paperclip started in 1945, MKULTRA in 1953. This is not "Right after the approval of project paperclip". Please check your information. -- The Anome 23:01, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Involved "victims"

You state that there have been two documented cases of deaths induced by MK-UULTRA, namely Olson & Blauer. But you also explain that MK-ULTRA discovered that interrogation using both barbiturates and amphetimines, causes death to "the patient". Have any additional "patients" actually died whilst hooked up to such drugs ?

Scuttlebut- Vannavar Bush, tim Leary, and Kocynski ( unibomber ) are reputed to have been involved.

Kaczynski was a Harvard during the Leary years, but was not part of MKULTRA. However he was part of a different experiment, involving putting stress on the subject, run by Henry Murray of the OSS,(later CIA). See Harvard and the Unabomber: The Education of an American Terrorist by Alston Chase

[edit] Frank Olson

In the main MKULTRA page it states that Frank Olsen fell 13 stories to his death. In the page for Frank Olsen it states that he fell 10. Is there a dispute?? Jaberwocky6669 19:33, Aug 11, 2004 (UTC)

According to the Olson family's report of a Washington Post story [1] it was 10 stories. See also [2] -- The Anome 20:33, 11 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Americans

"This revelation largely derailed efforts by the victims to sue the CIA as their American counterparts had, and the Canadian government eventually settled out-of-court for $100,000 to each of the 127 victims."

I'm not an American, so I won't make the edit, but isn't it typical to consider Canadians as American too? In this case "US couterparts" would be correct. --Malcohol 16:18, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that "US counterparts" is a more precise wording. The use of "American" to mean "of the United States" is the most common meaning of the word, though it is controversial. As such, I don't think many Canadians consider themselves Americans.

Acegikmo1 08:16, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I try to use USA instead of America, I suppose the term US American might be the best term for its denizens. Wblakesx17:46, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)~~

[edit] Do Dissenting Opinions mean anything?

I think that the following statement is biased.

"And while the suit was unsuccessful, dissenting opinions put the Army—and by association the entire government—on notice that use of individuals without their consent is unacceptable. "

Dissenting Opinions never have legal weight.

Should we add this?

It seemed like a philosolphical discussion. I'm not timid to make the edit, but I'd like to discuss it.

159.28.161.52 15:16, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Dissenting opinions are useful in understanding and mapping developing law. Although dissenting opinions do not create binding precedent, they have persuasive value and may be cited in legal briefs and opinions. (User: NLacktman)

[edit] Featured article? Appropriate.

Most of the sources are sensationalist conspiracy theory bullshit. Maybe this should be disambiguated for the bullshit version of events and the real version.

Dear anon: You marked this article as disputed. Which statements do you feel are in error? – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)}[[]] 14:21, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Since this dispute is a anonymous slur, I am removing it until somebody comes with real objections to this article. --Martin Wisse 15:04, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the article is relatively cautious, although some of the links and references do go off the deep end into conspiracism. The page would be improved, I think, if something like this is added:

There is no evidence that the CIA (or anyone else) has actually succeeded in controlling a person's complex actions through these techniques, and the area is often plowed by conspiracists. Nonetheless, the secrecy of the government makes a full investigation of claims impossible.

Discussion? --Cberlet 17:34, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

OK, I added the desclaimer, but then went back and added that the experiments were "horrific and reprehensible." Seemed appropriate and made it clear what was being disclaimed.

"As horrific and reprehensible as the experiments were, there is no evidence that the CIA (or anyone else) has actually succeeded in controlling a person's complex actions through "mind control" techniques, and the area is often plowed by conspiracists. Nonetheless, the secrecy of the government and the file destruction makes a full investigation of claims impossible."

- - I find that the use of the term 'conspiracists' is unbearably biased. For a project that lasted 20 years that had so little material released, considering people who make the claims that the government could have succeeded or is still trying to succeed, 'conspiracists' leans heavily towards validating the government's denials. Your claim of 'conspiracism' could have been made against the Congressmen who investigated the MK-Ultra affair in the 70s. In such a political climate as we have with the current Bush Admin, you can be sure that they would be slandered and called 'conspiracists'. So maybe I find that word too political and the censorship of people curious about what our government did and does to be rather fascist. In otherwords, people who call for government transparency and responsibility, who would demand any issue be investigated today (unlike, say, in the days of Clinton, with the Lewinsky affair) are labeled terrorists-lovers, anti-americans, etc. "Conspiracists" is another way of censoring those who seek that government transparency and directing public opinion in favor of those who don't.

There is so much more on MK-Ultra that can be covered, but since it is likely will get edited out of wikipedia, I have created a wiki to cover all the claims, the link is on my userpage. Conwiki 04:49, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Hope this works for folks.--Cberlet 13:45, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Guess not...how about "widely condemned"?--Cberlet 14:16, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Well... given the facts of the matter, who wouldn't condemn it? Unless we can cite some expert source stating such opinions (which I don't really think we need) we should just leave it up to the reader to condemn it or no. BTW, isn't this a conflict of interest since you and Dennis King are MK Ultra operatives? ;) Example (talk • contribs) 14:22, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Cute. :-) I must be writing this while under mind control. I see your point. I just did not want people to think that the disclaimer was somehow suggesting the experiments were not icky. --Cberlet 14:45, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Actually they are presented in such a reprehensible light that it begs the question of the veracity of the claims, and the context. Its very hard for me to believe that these (assumably) insane researchers were given such a free rein. Example (talk • contribs) 14:17, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I didn't personally find this article bias or extreme in either direction anywhere. For skeptics (of the level of evility possible by "powers that be"), I'd confidently claim that throughout the history of our species, there are plenty of examples of governments/rulers performing acts of unspeakable horror upon their own populace. Power corrupts and the people responsible for this were among the most powerful people/organizations to ever exist. 17:50 (EST) Jan 23/05

Take another look at MKULTRA and follow the links under /* See also */. It won't be hard for you to believe once you study the more credible references such as the U.S. Senate hearing.--AI 11:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

"Actually they are presented in such a reprehensible light that it begs the question of the veracity of the claims, and the context. Its very hard for me to believe that these (assumably) insane researchers were given such a free rein."

-Your comment sadly speaks volumes about the average person. Let me guess, you didn't hear about this on CNN or Entertainment Tonight so it can't be true? What's "hard for me to believe" is that people like you remain content in your complacency.

[edit] U.S. Senate Hearing

I put Kennedy's quote at the introduction of the article so people know right away that MKULTRA was a genuine CIA project and not just some crackpot conspiracy theory made up by tinfoil hat wearers.--AI 11:31, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Propaganda and Psyops do not belong on this page

This statement: " Some of the mind control techniques known to have some success are hypnosis, marketing, and psyops techniques. " was followed by an entirely off-topic discussion. None of these matters are related to MKULTRA, unless someone wants to argue that the term has become generic, and even then, there would have to be a proper cite, not just an idiosyncratic assertion.--Cberlet 00:04, 13 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Who added that statement? Perhaps they were referring to research discoveries of MKULTRA.--AI 11:32, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

- I'm amused by the term 'propaganda' in relation to the passage. I do think, however, that psyops should be referenced. If an important project led to the discovery or development of new things, it would be listed.

[edit] Books

How did you manage to leave out Tranceformation of America, by Cathy O'Brien, one the best-known mind controlled slaves in MK-ULTRA?

Why haven't you added that information?--AI 22:50, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Known Participants: Erroneous?

What is the proof that the people listed here had anything to do with MKULTRA? It looks like someone vandalized the section with Ted Kazynski and various notable people who used LSD.

Agreed, a quick search fails to turn up a mainstream source that he was an MKULTRA subject. [3] seems to indicate that he was subjected to experiments by Henry A. Murray, who was also involved in MKULTRA, but stops shot of saying Kaczynski was in MKULTRA.

What is the mainstream source for saying Kaczynski was in MK-ULTRA? Chris vLS 28 June 2005 13:20 (UTC)

I haven't seen the direct link anywhere. The article on Henry Murray only mentions Murray's connection to the OSS. What is the link to MKULTRA?--AI 30 June 2005 02:39 (UTC)

I can't find any firm information linking either of the "admitted participants" to MK-ULTRA. On that basis and because the original author did not explain how these people were involved, or linked to any infomation explaining that, I am deleting this section of the article. If anyone can find trustworthy information about who ran the project and who drugs were used on, they are welcome to add that with sourcing.

AI, it wasn't "blanking," whatever the hell that means. If a claim can't or won't be supported in any way, it is gossip, not fact. If you think the known participants section can be justified in an encyclopedia article, prove it. Explain how Baba Ram Dass, Allen Ginsberg, Theodore Kaczynski, Ken Kesey, Dr. John C. Lilly, and Dr. Timothy Leary were involved in MK-ULTRA and how we know that. Until you do I'm re-deleting that section. This is an encyclopedia article, not a tinfoil-hatted chatboard.

Also, explain how just having a list of people who used LSD and labeling them as "known participants" in MK-ULTRA without any other information tells us anything about MK-ULTRA. If they are "known participants," what is known about their participation?

I agree with you but I don't think simply removing the content is a solution. If you want to remove it at least copy it here. --AI 09:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Known Participants People who have admitted direct participation or who are widely known to have participated directly:

Baba Ram Dass (Richard Alpert)
Allen Ginsberg
Theodore Kaczynski a.k.a. the Unabomber
Ken Kesey
Dr. John C. Lilly - admitted participation
Dr. Timothy Leary - admitted participation

Let's verify/refuse each "participant" and then a corrected version of this section can be moved onto the article. --AI 09:01, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

Robert Hunter, who wrote lyrics for Jerry Garcia, has publicly claimed to have participated in the MKULTRA LSD experiments that took place on the Stanford Campus. He has referenced these experiences in his own public online journal as well as print articles.

Atlantic Monthly had a cover article in 04 or 05 on Kacynski's involvement in a psychologically damaging experimental program at Harvard, but dont recall it being MK-ultra per se.

Addendum to my above post - two separate shows on conspiracies and mind control (one on TLC and one on National Geographic) recently aired and they discussed the harvard Experiments. Basically, people suspect that the program Kacynski was in was part of MKUltra, but not part of the LSD experiments. I'll try and dig up some actual quote. It's probably not a coincidence that the program he was in was conducted at the same time as other programs at Harvard known to be part affiliated with the cia. Now, just being affiliated with the CIA doesn't make them MKUltra, but back then there was a lot of cross-pollination between projects. The descriptions of what TK was exposed to sound an awful lot like those horrendous mind-blanking experiments done in Canada on behalf of the CIA. The difference there though is that the canada program also used elctroshock. BTW - I'm not a conspiracy treu-beliver, just somebody who finds them fascinating. When it comes to MUKUltra what suprises me most is how much CAN be proved not how much his alleged with no evidence.Lisapollison 12:36, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Massive referencing?

I'm going to do some detailed footnoting of the claims in this article, like what I did on Jean-François de Galaup, count de La Pérouse - what do people think of this? Any comments, suggestions, etc, would be deeply appreciated. Thanks! JesseW 06:55, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Rewriting needed

I have no idea what the following sentence means: 'This was to stop them from thinking to be not just an ideological but also a political movement.' (found under the heading 'The experiments') Could somone who understands what the sentence was trying to say please rewrite the sentence in a clearer form. Thanks

[edit] Conspiracy Theories

In the 'Conspiracy Theories' section, I edited "though all of this is still only speculation" to read "though all of this is only speculation" as the 'still' seems leading to me, and implies a TRULY ongoing investigation.

[edit] A few things to add

Firstly I'd just mention that there was a large section on MKULTRA in the Sky One programme "Secrets of the CIA" recently, so perhaps that should be mentioned somewhere in the article (I'm not sure if it should be put into the Pop culture references section though, because it was a documentary).

Secondly I'd just like to ask (and perhaps this could be included in the article), whether there were people investigating this Project before it was publicly admitted, and were these people seen as Conspiracy Theorists/Wackos etc. at the time?

If so it could be that very rare thing, a conspiracy theory that turned out to be true.

And finally I was wondering whether there is an issue with other researchers using the results of this "Unethical" research, is it currently acceptable within Academia to use any of the Knowledge or conclusions gained from the Project? (In the same way as it is today consider unacceptable to use knowledge gained from the human experimentation research done by Nazi Doctors during WW2)?

--Hibernian 06:04, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Beatles as Satanists?

"Satanism was promoted by many musical groups of the time, including the Beatles, who also promoted the use of drugs such as Marijuana and LSD..."

I'd like to see a reference for this information, as it seems like this is a biased viewpoint. Unless there is some large factiod about one of the Beatles that I've somehow missed, I don't believe that the Beatles really contributed to the satanist movement at all. The quote that follows the statement doesn't seem to prove this assertion.

--Columba livia 04:29, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Probably by someone who listened to the Black album one to many times. 66.229.182.113 10:10, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Real or Cruft?

Is this real, or Coast-To-Coast-AM-shadow-people stuff? Morton devonshire 00:12, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually real, can you believe that. --Nuclear~~Zer0~~ 23:16, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mindfield by Gordon Thomas

Everybody writing about the MK Ultra and following programs should read this book. It portrays a grim picture of emerging psychiatry and would be Dr Frankenstein. It follows the tracks of Gottlieb, Cameron in Canada and Sargant in UK. What is frightening is that they were little better than nazi or japanese "doctors" in the camps.

http://www.gordonthomas.ie/mindfield.htm

[edit] Can the project still be going?

I've been thinking about that for a while, and it isn't impossible at all that the experiments are still running. Now that there is a much advanced technology, the government may actually succeed with more useful chemicals than LSD... Worth thinking about, especially if you are also a little paranoid and thus capable of imagining the government in our heads. As for me, it isnt exactly convincing that almost all the documentary was destroyed, neither is it believable that the project had no scientific background to it. JaneDOA

[edit] Citation

This article currently has a rather underwhelming 10 citations; it should include a number of additional citations. Titanium Dragon 08:06, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Costas Tsalakides and Danny Casolaro

I'd like to add something about Danny Casolaro who was writing about "The Octopus" and Costas Tsalakides of the Vodafone Scandal. Both of their odd suicides have been purpoted to be related to MKULTRA.

[edit] Conspiracy Theories and Citations

There's a terrible lack of citations in the conspiracy theories section. the top bit has at least some links, but this part:

Many other "conspiracy theories" have arisen from the depths of the governments shady dealings in mind-control. Mk-Ultra and many other such black-ops projects have been reportedly linked to satanic and occultist activities working inside the U.S. government. Kathy O'brien, an alleged victim of trauma-based mind control claims to be one of the only Mk-Ultra and Project Monarch survivors who has been deprogrammed and lives to tell of the evils working within our her own government. In her book Trance Formation of America, she tells her story of how she and her daughter have been subjected to occultist rituals and programmed for sex slavery for many high-level politicians including Robert Byrd and Dick Cheney. Investigations into these activities have been restricted under the guise of "reasons of national security".

definitely needs some verification. --Cheeesemonger 02:03, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

update: Cathy has an article, but her name is spelled wrong here. looking at her website now, but it's rather silly. Here's a link. --Cheeesemonger 02:27, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ahead cruft factor nine, Mr Sulu...

Some of the pop culture refs may be notable. Not all of them are. A massive collection of passing mentions in barely-notable media does not improve an article. Here they are, please choose the top five or six significant ones.

The Richard Condon novel The Manchurian Candidate, and its film adaptations, portrays the assassination of an American presidential candidate by a brainwashed US soldier [4] in a manner which evidenced numerous parallels to the JFK assassination, despite the fact that the novel and John Frankenheimer's original film adaptation were released prior to Kennedy's murder.
In the movie Conspiracy Theory, Mel Gibson's character was a subject in the MKULTRA experiments.
Various MK-Ultra participants appear as characters in Wisdom's Maw: The Acid Novel (Far Gone Books, 1996), by Todd Brendan Fahey.
The movie Jacob's Ladder contains a plot element in which soldiers in Vietnam are involuntarily subjected to mind-altering drugs.
See The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test, and Ken Kesey
The bands mk Ultra and MK-ULTRA took their names from these projects.
In the song "Let Robeson Sing" (about Paul Robeson), The Manic Street Preachers refer to MKULTRA as having made Robeson paranoid.
A reference to MKULTRA is made in The X-Files episode, "Jose Chung's 'From Outer Space'".
Electronica artist The Orb produced a track called "MK Ultra".
Drum and bass artist Skynet produced a track called "MK Ultra".
Drum and bass artist Amit produced a track called "MK Ultra" that was released as a single 12" and also on an album called "Never Ending".
Noise rock band Green Magnet School have a song named "MK Ultra" on their final album.
Underground Hip Hop artist Immortal Technique mentions MK ultra in his Anti-Imperialism track "The 4th Branch", on the album Revolutionary Vol. 2
Holy Ghost has a song called "MK Ultra" on the album "The Mind Control Of Candy Jones"
Lustmord side project Terror Against Terror created a track called "Stalker (MKULTRA Mix)".
The conspiracy comic series Vector 13 did an issue on MKULTRA, although there was little to do with the actual project except the name.
Stephen King's novel Firestarter dealt with two characters who'd been subject to psychedelic drug treatments as part of college experiments, with mind-altering results.
Author Matthew E. Clairmont's first book, Lesser Minds: The Michael Enslow Project, mentions a fictional CIA mind-control project from the 1960s and 1970s called ED-EXCEL, in which researchers used LSD, heroin and physical and sexual abuse to establish coercion. The upcoming trilogy makes numerous references to this project that mirror MK-ULTRA.
The professional wrestler Sterling James Keenan's finishing move is called the MK Ultra.
Rock band Muse included a photograph of the MKULTRA documents in the lyric booklet enclosed with their fourth album, Black Holes And Revelations.
The Role Playing Game Conspiracy X lists the MKULTRA program as a project to help defeat the Greys. The Game states that the MKULTRA subjects were released in the late 60's and that two eventually met up, married and produced offspring with super-enhanced psychic abilities. This led directly to the Ruby Ridge incident. http://www.conspiracyx.com/
In the video game The Suffering: Prison is Hell a minor character states he believes that the monsters are hallucinations brought on by experimentation on prisoners, "MK-Ultra if you can believe that shit!" As the game is published by Midway Games, there are minor references to other Midway products such as Mortal Kombat (often abbreviated as MK) as Easter eggs, so the reference could have a double meaning.
Cult DJ Fatboy Slim's music video for Sunset (Bird of Prey) was based primarily on the MKULTRA experiments and their effect on USAF pilots.
The book "Field Guide to the Apocalypse" instructs citizens to "discontinue taking any medication called MK-ULTRA immediately."
"The Magic Bullet", an episode of the television series Angel features a conspiracy theorist who believes the CIA has been monitoring his thoughts on an ongoing basis. After his sudden religious conversion to the worship of Jasmine (who rules by mind control), he states his newfound satisfaction with the belief that the CIA will be exposed via his brain waves to the glory of Jasmine. Specifically his wish is to "spread the love to those MKULTRA bastards."
In 2006, the CBS show "NUMB3RS" featured a similar plot to MK-ULTRA conspiracy theories.
MKUltra3 is the name of an animated serial, originally produced in the year 2000 by artist Mike Morrison.
It appeared on the website ifilm.com in May of 2001. The cartoon tells the story of Cody, Ricky and Vera, three children brainwashed by the CIA into working as assassins. It was pulled from the ifilm.com site in October, 2001, following the events of 9/11. It has since resurfaced on YouTube.
MK Ultra is also the name of a medical strain of marijuana.

This is not the first article to be overwhelmed by cruft, please deal with it. Thanks. Guy (Help!) 21:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'll probably work on this within the next week, unless someone gets to it sooner. Personally, I think it would be best to group the references together, by music references, television references, etc. One or two sentences per medium and 4-6 bullets should cover it I'd think. That way the cruft would get eliminated or reduced but the valid references would remain. I hope. Wyatt Riot 23:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be sufficient. Ideas? Wyatt Riot 11:28, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Looking good as of this time. Guy (Help!) 11:04, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

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