Talk:South Tyrol

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It has been proposed below that South Tyrol be renamed and moved to Province of Bozen - South Tyrol.

The proposed move should have been noted at Wikipedia:Requested moves.
Discussion to support or oppose the move should be on this talk page, usually under the heading "Requested move". If, after a few days, a clear consensus for the page move is reached, please move the article and remove this notice, or request further assistance.

Maintenance Use Only: {{subst:WP:RM|South Tyrol|Province of Bozen - South Tyrol|}}

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[edit] Requested move

South Tyrol → Province of Bolzano — This area is shown on the majority of English maps and lists of provinces of Italy as Bolzano. This province in English is referred to as Bolzano, not South Tyrol. This can be shown by looking at any good quality reference. Also, this page should fit the convention where the provinces of Italy are listed as Province of Trento, Province of Rome, Province of Milan, Province of Venice, etc., etc. If there is a strong desire for a South Tyrol page, it should be moved to South Tyrol (historical). Taalo 10:19, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add # '''Support''' or # '''Oppose''' on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this survey is not a vote, and please provide an explanation for your recommendation.

Please read: This page has seen tons of votes regarding it's name. Basically all of the comments have been German speakers vs Italian speakers, who are indisputably influenced by their personal opinion. Since I really think that this poll might work, I would like to ask (if you will) if you have an inherent bias as a German- or Italian-speaker that you please identify that somewhere in your comment. This is not mandatory, but would help a lot. I would like to remain neutral in this dispute and hopefully I can try to keep things under control. Thank you. —METS501 (talk) 03:07, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in support of the move

Support Any basic list of provinces has Bolzano listed, as well as Trento, Rome, Verona, etc. This page should be moved to Province of Bolzano as this is what is used most often in English to refer to this province -- simple. South Tyrol, if kept, should be restarted as a South Tyrol (historical). An attempt to recast this province as South Tyrol is just complete partisan politics. If South Tyrol is used, why not Alto Adige or High Adige? Regardless, the point of en Wikipedia is to use what is commonly used in English, and again, any English list of Italian provinces has Bolzano, not South Tyrol. Taalo 10:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Support I completely agree with Taalo. I would prefer Autonomous Province of Bolzano, as Autonomous Province of Trento, but, anyway, this is better than the current title. --Checco 18:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: it is the official name. And the problem of the biligusim is well described in the aricle..--Giovanni Giove 18:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Support agree with checco Autonomous Province of Bolzano is best--Francomemoria 23:08, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Support i agree with what was said above. --Fertuno 15:17, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Support - this is generally how article on Italian provinces are named. john k 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support and agree with John. For the record, Britannica uses Bolzano-Bozen provincia, while Columbia uses Bolzano province. I support a division of articles. Olessi 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support I'm in favor of moving this page to Province of Bolzano-Bozen noclador 17:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Support I speak neither German nor Italian. As far as my colloquial usage is concerned, this area is known by me as the South Tyrol. What its official name is is of little concern to me - I'm quite used to official names of things being radically different to what everyone else calls it in everyday life. Officially, I live in London, but everyone round where I live knows full well we are in Middlesex. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol can call it whatever they like - as far as I'm concerned, the perfectly good English name is South Tyrol. I don't complain when non-natives call London Londres, Londra, Londen, Londyn, Lontoo, or even Λονδίνο. I suspect any English-speaking people with a passing knowledge of geography would have a better idea where the South Tyrol was rather than Bolzano. However, all of the above said, this is meant to be an encyclopædia, and I would suggest that the article should best be entitled by the South Tyrol's current official name, with a redirect or possibly a small article under South Tyrol explaining the historical and/or (English) colloquial usage. WLD^talk|edits 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey - in opposition to the move

Oppose. See all the discussions above. Markussep 13:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

What are your objections to using Province of Bolzano but then a South Tyrol (historical)? Then having South Tyrol redirect to the Bolzano page. In English, this province is referred to as Bolzano, just as we refer to the state of Maryland. The thing is that in Italian provinces, the names mirror the largest cities, so we need to differentiate by using Province of... explicitly in the page name. regards. Taalo 20:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose Again as usual. Gryffindor 17:37, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Weak oppose. If the article were essentialy about the province today then Autonomous Province of Bolzano would be my clear first choice. But the article is more generally about the area, currently in Italy, long known in English as South Tyrol. If people were prepared to do the writing, I would strongly support a split, with South Tyrol as the umbrella topic, including a brief section on the autonomous province and pointing to its main article. And vice versa. —Ian Spackman 08:53, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Split is in the proposal above. *thumbs up*. Taalo 17:30, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

You got it right. We probably need to split the article in two articles: one about the province, the other one about historical South Tyrol. --Checco 11:31, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

It is pretty straightforward really. South Tyrol -> Province of Bolzano and History of South Tyrol -> South Tyrol (Historical), with pointers back and forth as Ian suggests. Then have South Tyrol redirect to Province of Bolzano. This page has historical information, but in its core it is regarding this province. Every respectable English reference lists the provinces and includes Bolzano. Taalo 01:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose, the article isn't about the province alone. Split would be an option. --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Split is in the proposal above, so what is the opposition to? Taalo 16:45, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

~~--85.124.8.189 14:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)~~
Oppose. South Tyrol is the appropriate name, understood by everyone. Taalo, you needn't comment every opponent. --PhJ 15:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Though I'm free to, especially when you fail to make a comment that helps us move forward. It is an appropriate name, understood by everiyone? And? What about the English references? What about the real name of the province being Bolzano (Bozen)? What about South Tyrol being only a translation of the German name, and thereby not being a compromise what-so-ever? But again, I saw your posts about keep fighting.. *rolls eyes*. Taalo 16:21, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose In the german Wikipedia the article is called Südtirol and the correct translation is South Tyrol. Hence it is the appropriate name an as there is no official English name, the german one should be taken as a reference. --138.232.249.151 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

you wouldn't be from de.wikipedia by any chance now, would you? Note, en.wikipedia isn't a translation of de.wikipedia. thanks! Taalo 17:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

stop manipulating votes/opinions you don't like. --138.232.249.151 16:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no manipulation, and things are under control. Chill. Rarelibra 16:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose See the reasons above. --Kl4Uz 17:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

No sockpuppets or single-use accounts please. --Checco 17:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

So I'm a sockpuppet? I don't think so. Check my contributions, this is not a single-use account. --Kl4Uz 15:53, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed I looked at them: don't be ridicolous. --Checco 16:14, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Have a look at this: Authoritarian_character. Who do you think you are? You have no right to delete votes. Better have a look at Wikipedia's rules. And stop vandalising this page. --Kl4Uz 17:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

See below, mr. Single-use Account. --Checco 17:21, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Dito, [personal attack deleted]. --Kl4Uz 15:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

First: what's the meaning of "dito"? Second: stop offending me and the rules of Wikipedia. --Checco 15:37, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose The region is still called, in English, the South Tyrol, and has a long history before 1918. I would have no objection to a separate article about the provincial government, which should be called Province of Bolzano. "South Tyrol" is neither German nor Italian (Since Mets asks, I am neither German nor Italian.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Checco's objection to some of the oppose votes is probably justified; but this should not be done by striking them. Let the closing admin make up his own mind. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose The hystorical name in English is South Tyrol, Italian politics should be left out of wikipedia. Moreover, South Tyrol is explicitely used by the official server of Bozen county], as well as the obvious French and Lithuanian translations. Finally, this attempts to replace the native German names with their artificial Italian counterparts at English wikipedia looks like insisting on some kind of chauvinisme, the same one South Tyrol has been a victim of since first world war. I dare recalling that there are still in place some enrollments like We Latins taught the Germans arts and literarure, amongst the several hurts of this land. But this attitude is especially disruptive, since it only gives rise to ethnical-like conflicts. This is really not the point. Thank you.--Clamengh 19:57, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Holly jeez, who is the one bringing politics into this? If you havn't noticed, it takes two to debate. Also, who is replacing anything? Don't you think it would be just as bad to cover up the local Italian words as it is to cover up the local German words? You are the one who is actually generating ethnic conflict by even quoting sentences like this thing about Latins teaching Germans. o_O Are you actually trying to stir up things? This is just more of the same black-and-white group-think. Things are never so clear as you think, and consider that in the past there was a lot of imposing of one onto the other: The Romans onto the Rheatians, the Germans onto the Latins, etc, etc. Taalo 03:58, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You missed completely the point, indeed we are talking about the fact that this is the only page about Italian provinces which has a title different from the form Province of XXXXX. --Checco 20:02, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh please Checco, spare us that bs. Just admit that you want to shape Wikipedia according to your [personal attack deleted] view of the world. --Kl4Uz 17:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a Venetian independentist so your accusation is ridicolous. Anyway every user can look at your contributions and see that you are a single-use account and, probably, also a sockpuppet. I won't strike your vote anymore, but stop being ridicolous and stop insulting me. --Checco 17:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I will strike your vote, Kl4Uz - you are single-use and your vote doesn't count as per wiki rules. Live with it. Rarelibra 18:55, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny. My account was created in 2005 [personal attack deleted]. The degree of my activities here are none of your business. Show me the rule, before you vandalize again. --Kl4Uz 15:14, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Indeed for the fact that it was created in 2005 and never used for 2 years are the best demonstration of you being a sockpuppet and a single-use account. --Checco 15:39, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Leave it for the closing admin. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Oppose - this is the English language edition of Wikipedia, and South Tyrol is the commonly used and understood name. "Province of Bolzano" means nothing to most English-speakers. -- Mais oui! 12:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

And what about all the other provinces: Province of Trento, Province of Milan, Province of Turin, Province of Venice, Province of Rome, Province of Naples, Province of Bari, Province of Palermo, etc. Why does this province deserve a different treatment from all the other 109 Provinces of Italy? --Checco 12:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

Map from the Encyclopedia Britannica: [1]. Taalo 10:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Per Rarelibra. Taalo 10:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC):

So I did some research and checked with some pretty credible sources as to what they print, in ENGLISH, for the name of this region (and province) in Italy.

Fodor's - a well recognized and respected name (and expert guide) has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

Michelin - also expert in travel guides - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bozen".

Rand McNally (name speaks for itself) has world, regional, and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

Streetwise Map's regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

Dorling Kindersley or "DK" - by far, probably the best travel guides available - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

Lonely Planet (the self-proclaimed largest independently-owned travel guide) regional, and local publications show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

Hammond Map - a subsidiary of Langenscheidt Publishing Group (a privately-held German publishing company) - has regional and local publications that show the region and local names of "Trentino-Alto Adige", "Alto Adige", and "Bolzano".

As far as proof, I am quite sure that the above sources are credible enough, especially in the sense of geographical knowledge, expertise, and English-translation. Rarelibra 03:48, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

I see this not so relevant list is used as "proof" again. See the comments and test results at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name#the REAL name: Trentino-Alto Adige. Markussep 15:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Aren't bi-weekly move requests abuse? --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Some editors propose to have an extra article about the "historical" South Tyrol in addition to one about the Province of Bolzano. This is illogical, because the two terms are equivalent. The term "South Tyrol" in the sense of the area of today's Province of Bolzano did not exist before 1919. Before that time, when Tyrol was still a unified territory, "Südtirol" denoted the part of Tyrol south of the Salurner Klause. From 1919 on Südtirol has been used for the part of Tyrol that was incorporated into Italy. So, there is nothing "historical" about South Tyrol, there is no "historical" South Tyrol. Andreas ^(T) 16:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

So besides your critism of the proposed solution, what is your alternative? Is using something like Province of Bolzano (Bozen) and a redirect from South Tyrol to this page not sufficient then? Especially that you don't like a historical South Tyrol page? The simple fact is that lists of Italian provinces have Bolzano, and it is perfectly fine to add Bozen to that too. You do not find English lists of Italian provinces that have South Tyrol, Seudtirol, Bozen-Seudtirol. Besides, Bolzano (Bozen) is a compromise and includes both languages. I'd really like to see a few of the German folk compromise on this issue.. just a bit. It would make my German-side feel a lot better about itself! Taalo 16:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intepretation of the results so far

So fare we have 8 users out of 10 who dislike the current title of the article, 6 of them would accept Province of Bolzano and 2 would accept it, if the article is split in two: a article about the Province and an other one on the historical South Tyrol. We need a compromise solution, but what is sure is that we need to change the title to this page, as only 2 users out of 10 staunchly defend the status quo. --Checco 08:40, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. There are at least four defenders of the status quo, and the others have no real problem with the present title, except for Checco and Taalo. --PhJ 15:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And sadly the defenders are all German-speakers, so it is just degrading again into a POV battle. I saw what you wrote on Martin's page about keep fighting. Why don't you instead try to compromise. Every major English reference lists the provinces of Italy, including Bolzano. A compromise would be Province of Bolzano (Bozen). A non-compromise is South Tyrol which is an English translation of the German name for this region. Why don't you bring up an equal list of English references that list the provinces of Italy, and say South Tyrol? why? Because Wikipedia is based off English references, not having twenty of your friends some here and fight. Taalo 16:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you able to read, PhJ? I see 6 votes in support of the move and 5 votes against (of which 2 are in favour of a split of the article). This makes 8 against the status quo and 3 who defend it (there's one more tha before: you). I can't understand what you counted. --Checco 16:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

And you folks need to stop making fun of users like PhJ and start respecting others, it's really sad how this discussion goes and how you try to superimpose Italian names at all costs. This is not some Italian nationalist irredentism you need to fight out here. Gryffindor 17:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Gryffindor, you have to be kidding. You accuse others of Italian nationalism when the names we have now soley support a German nationalism. You have Italian speakers that are largely looking for a compromise, but you are summoning German speakers to push for this status quo. You have grown a strong bias over this situation, that you think that you must protect the Germans? Why don't you look after everyone? Just remember, you initiated the move in the first place where you unilaterally decided to remove Alto Adige and put only South Tyrol. Its forgivable, and I hope your intentions were good, but we have to come up with a shared solution now. I've said before that the irony in pushing for "German" names like Meran, is that they are in fact the local Italian language/dialect words going back to even pre-German migration into the region. I'm not trying to say Roman > Germanic, I'm just saying it isn't so black and white as a lot of you would like to believe...Taalo 17:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Could we go with?

Could everyone agree with Province of Bolzano (Bozen)? This satisfies 1) English usage of Bolzano for the province name 2) shares the Italian and German naming. I feel like I'm running a kindergarden! :}~~ Come on guys, compromise, none of this ridiculous keep fighting. Taalo 16:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like fights either, but this name simply won't do. The region is called "South Tyrol" and it's even part of the official name, check the homepage of the government of South Tyrol. Gryffindor 16:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But every major English reference that lists provinces of Italy lists Bolzano. How do reconcile this? If you want to talk about the region then you have to say Alto Adige/South Tyrol as well. Anyway, the regional name is accounted for at what would be Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. The province pages can be Province of Trento and Province of Bolzano (Bozen) and we are done. We have proper English usage in the titles and we also have proper sharing of the names. Taalo 17:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Here is the homepage in Italian, which is the official language in Italy and also in the Province of Bolzano. Did you know it? --Checco 16:49, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Support It is a compromise solution which doesn't make everybody totally happy, but at least is better than the current title (I think that most you you will agree with me), which is contested by 8 (included those 2 who support the split, which will be the next thing to do, IMO) users out of 11. --Checco 16:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone dislikes Alto Adige, some others South Tyrol... we need a compromise and what is better than sticking to the official name of the Province, called (Autonomous) Province of Bolzano in the Italian Constitution. Every Italian province is named Province of XXXX both by the Italian government and by en.Wikipedia (from Province of Sondrio to Province of Trapani). So what's the problem? --Checco 16:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not happy about it, but anything else than a single "Alto Adige" or "Upper Adige" solution can be acceptable for me. So after fighting there can be compromises. --PhJ 17:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, just the same I hope you should say "anything else than a single "Seudtirol" or "South Tyrol" as is the situation now. You can gain a lot by trying to protect both sides, you know? :} Anyway, the regional names can be perfectly captured in Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. This province in Italy is Bolzano (Bozen). It is official, and it is in every major English reference that lists Italian provinces. We can't just cover our eyes. Taalo 17:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that South Tyrol should be about a historic region, and Province of Bolzano or Province of Bolzano (Bozen) should be about the present day province. (We could make a similar distinction between Trentino and Province of Trento). john k 18:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, even though I think that using Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol holds the regional names very well right there. Then Province of Bolzano (Bozen) properly references the province. Bingo, done! Taalo 18:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussions

Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

But all the major English references that list Italian provinces use Bolzano, so that is the English usage. There are none that use Bozen-South Tyrol. The official name of the province is Bolzano (aka Bozen). South Tyrol is now a name for the region, and which is included in the name Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. (i.e., we don't say Province of Trento-Trentino). They translate it this way on the BZ provincial website, but that page already has some unfortunate bias, and we shouldn't use one non-native English website as the beacon of truth. They could of just as well translated it as Province of Bolzano-Bozen. I would of had a much better impression had they done so! Taalo 18:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

HERE is a paper that shows the name as "Province of Bolzano/Bozen-South Tyrol" (this seems, again, very neutral and pleasing for all parties involved).
HERE is another that shows it as "Province of Bozen-Bolzano/South Tyrol" in English.
HERE is a website that shows it as "Province of Bozen (South Tyrol)".
HERE is a website that shows it as "Bozen-Bolzano (South Tyrol)".
HERE is a usage with "Province of Bolzano-Bozen - South Tyrol".
HERE is an EU report with the usage of "Province of Bolzano-Bozen (South Tyrol)".
HERE is an Italian (South Tyrol) website with the usage of "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol" (as the provincial government uses in English).
HERE is a source that shows the name as "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" (which I think is a great compromise and proper English translation). Rarelibra 19:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This shows an overwhelming presence of the use of "South Tyrol" appended to the provincial name (and the provincial government uses the translated English name of "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol"). Rarelibra 19:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd rather use true English references such as Britannica, Michelin, etc., than a few translations like this. You can indeed use Google to find many variations, but I don't know how it really helps. Like a few of these translations are from a .de or .at website, so that is how they translate into English. A simple solution is that the regional name contains all the historical names: Trentino, Alto Adige, South Tyrol. The province doesn't need to have Province of Bolzano (Bozen) - Alto Adige/South Tyrol. It is redundant, and no different than using Province of Trento-Trentino. Anyway, back to the references you found yourself (above). Major English references that have a list of provinces of Italy list Bolzano. Bolzano (Bozen) is a nice way to share. Taalo 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

South Tyrol

Markussep, you say the province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English. But are you a native English speaker? :} Can you show me common English-based references that list the provinces of Italy and just South Tyrol? The comprehensive lists that Rarelibra posted above show Verona, Trento, Bolzano, Milan, Rome, etc. Taalo 19:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not a native speaker, but I do read and speak English. I'm not going to answer the same question a zillion times. Take a look at Google Books, Google news and Google Scholar and tell me again that South Tyrol isn't used in English. Markussep 21:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL, come on, you are missing the boat here. :} The point is not if South Tyrol is or isn't used in English; and I definitely agree it is a proper translation of Seudtirol and is commonly used in English. The debate however is over how to name the provincial page in a way that uses English, but also is a compromise. Look, Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol); what is wrong with this? It's all English usage and it takes both sides into account. Your South Tyrol stays in the title, but others opinions on the matter are taken into account. We obviously need a compromise, simply because there is large dissatisfaction with having what many believe should be the Province of Bolzano only at South Tyrol. Taalo 21:38, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've said before what's wrong with it: the combination is not, or very rarely used in English. Take another look at WP:NCON, the title doesn't have to reflect all opinions. I'm very sure that "South Tyrol" is more used in English than "Province of Bolzano" (or whatever combination). Markussep 21:48, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, actually, all of the other articles have "Province of (name)" in their format, so it only is logical to have the same for this province as well. Wiki does have rules regarding keeping standards and conventions the same. South Tyrol is not special in this case, either. Rarelibra 21:52, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First round poll

CHOICE A: move page, using some "Province of ..." designation:
- current count: 10 votes

[edit] Province of Bolzano

Support: As in the survey above. --Checco 22:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: this is the translation of the official name "Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano" or german official name "Autonome Provinz Bozen" in English is "Autonomous Province of Bolzano". The use from provincial government of Alto Adige and Sudtirol names in not recognized from italian state--Francomemoria 20:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that I believe we could better argue that Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano + Autonome Provinz Bozen = Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen; which shortens to Province of Bolzano-Bozen. tada! :} Taalo 23:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: it is the official name. And the problem of the biligusim is well described in the aricle..--Giovanni Giove 18:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: - this is generally how article on Italian provinces are named. john k 00:14, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: and agree with John. For the record, Britannica uses Bolzano-Bozen provincia, while Columbia uses Bolzano province. I support a division of articles. Olessi 18:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support I speak neither German nor Italian. As far as my colloquial usage is concerned, this area is known by me as the South Tyrol. What its official name is is of little concern to me - I'm quite used to official names of things being radically different to what everyone else calls it in everyday life. Officially, I live in London, but everyone round where I live knows full well we are in Middlesex. The inhabitants of the South Tyrol can call it whatever they like - as far as I'm concerned, the perfectly good English name is South Tyrol. I don't complain when non-natives call London Londres, Londra, Londen, Londyn, Lontoo, or even Λονδίνο. I suspect any English-speaking people with a passing knowledge of geography would have a better idea where the South Tyrol was rather than Bolzano. However, all of the above said, this is meant to be an encyclopædia, and I would suggest that the article should best be entitled by the South Tyrol's current official name, with a redirect or possibly a small article under South Tyrol explaining the historical and/or (English) colloquial usage. WLD^talk|edits 21:31, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Province of Bolzano-Bozen

Support: This title includes the most used English name for referring to the Italian province Bolzano (in English maps, encyclopedias, etc.). A basic compromise is listing Bolzano-Bozen, something which is done in the province itself and in many English references. Right now a page Province of Bolzano/Province of Bolzano-Bozen is glaringly absent from English Wikipedia. I will also support Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol if the other-side prefers South Tyrol over Bozen. The bottom line is that major references like this [2] can not simply be ignored in favour of one-sided nationalistic POV. . Taalo 18:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support noclador 03:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Support: --Fertuno 18:39, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I tried this solution, for other articles of bilungual areas, they were deleted. I wuolud agree, but it seems is forbidden to introduce "long list of names".--Giovanni Giove 21:21, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Province of Bozen-South Tyrol

Support - the translated name from the provincial government website into English is "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol". The Italian name is Bolzano, but the translated English name is Province of Bozen-South Tyrol (as the French, Ladin, and German names also differ slightly). This is English wiki, we should use the proper translated English name. Rarelibra 18:41, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This is a solution that is entirely a German POV though, one that is likely based on a few people working in the provincial office. When I see most people refer to this province in English, it is simply province of Bolzano, or sometimes Bolzano (Bozen). Province of Bolzano (Bozen) captures both sides, like we are attempting to do on Trentino-Alto Adige/South Tyrol. I don't see how we can get anything but nationalistic backing for names like Province of Bozen (South Tyrol) and just South Tyrol. By rights we should just use Province of Bolzano, but I'd rather we come up with another shared solution. Just as Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is just the German name. Anyway, I can only back a solution that has both sides included: Province of Bolzano (Bozen), Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol), what have you. Taalo 20:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

CHOICE B: keep "as is":
- current count: 14 votes

[edit] South Tyrol

(Note: this option includes no "Province of ..." designation).

Support. Splitting this article doesn't make sense since South Tyrol only became a separate entity after WW1, at the same time it became a province of Italy. Between the Napoleonic wars and WW1, it was a part of the Austrian crown land Tyrol, and from the Middle Ages until the Napoleonic wars it was a patchwork of states within the Holy Roman Empire. The province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English. Markussep 19:26, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Markussep, you state "The province is commonly known as South Tyrol in English.". I really disagree with this, especially as a native English speaker. For example: [3]. Someone goes to this and sees Trentino-Alto Adige as the region and Bolzano-Bozen and Trento as the two provinces. This is plain and simple. Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol has both sides in the name. I fail to understand the lack of any desire for compromise. Taalo 19:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, Markussep. I have shown above that the "common" English is a mixed form. Rarelibra 19:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

English-based lists of Italian provinces list Bolzano. You don't go to Rand McNally, Britannica, etc. and see South Tyrol as one of the provinces. It is really that simple. A compromise is Province of Bolzano (Bozen). I could possibly get behind Province of Bolzano/Bozen-South Tyrol, though it is really unnecessary in my opinion. The regional name contains all the traditional names, Trentino, Alto Adige, South Tyrol. Taalo 19:34, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Rarelibra, you have a funny idea about what's commonly used in English. Show me an English language newspaper that uses Province of Bolzano/South Tyrol or something similar. Taalo, please stop focusing on lists of provinces. This article is not just a list filler. Markussep 19:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

But Wikipedia requires us to base what we do on something tangible.. I'm basing it on what I know as a native English speaker, and what the vast majority of proper English references use. You are just stating that South Tyrol is what most people refer to this province to, but as a non-native speaker, how do you know? I just can't agree with having the Province of Bolzano instead be listed as just South Tyrol, that's all. I see the license plates have BZ. I go to maps that have Trento beside Bolzano (Bozen). There is simply no Province of South Tyrol -- not to mention that having the article here maintains no compromise what-so-ever. German POV all the way man. :} Taalo 19:57, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The BZ license plate has nothing to do with what English-speakers call the region. By that argument, Switzerland would be retitled to Confoederatio Helvetica (CH). --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 01:46, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. When foreigners go to Switzerland they will want to find out what the CH means on the cars. Same thing with BZ on the cars in Bolzano (Bozen). I found many Americans who visited made that connection quite easily. By no means is BZ the end-all argument, but it is not frivolous. Taalo 01:49, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not too worried about Markussep. Let he think what he wants. The proof has been presented. He can deal with it in his own way. Rarelibra 20:16, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

You needn't worry about me, whatever you mean with that. Your proof is not convincing. I checked some of the links you gave under #Could we go with?. The first one only uses the (very) long name in the header. Everywhere else it's "South Tyrol" (e.g. first line: "The Provincial Government of South Tyrol has started..."). The second one only uses the long name in quotes, in the rest of the document it's "South Tyrol" or "Province of South Tyrol". The third one uses it only once, and it uses "Bundesland of Tyrol" for the Austrian state. I hope you're not suggesting that Tyrol (state) should be renamed. The fourth one is a copy an old version of the Wikipedia article on Schlanders. The fifth one is an online forum, those are not the most reliable sources of information. Your list of guidebooks and roadmaps has already been commented by Septentrionalis and myself at Talk:Trentino-South Tyrol/name#the REAL name: Trentino-Alto Adige. Markussep 10:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Markussep - I cannot spoonfeed you any more. If you didn't see in the one article where they said "hereafter referred to as 'South Tyrol'" - that is called a shortened name for replacement inside an article... so you don't have to continually type out the proper name. The list you mention is not of "guidebooks and roadmaps" - it is of major recognized and respected geographical knowledge centers - and we won't even talk about your comments or Pmanderson (the "Septentrionalis" real name). You can continue to be stubborn, but the rest of the world won't, plain and simple. Rarelibra 13:58, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is a list of travel guides and road maps (Michelin, Lonely Planet, Fodor's etc.), and as Septentrionalis pointed out, they tend to use local names because that's what you encounter when you're there. About shortened names, that's exactly like "French Republic" and "France", guess what's the article title. Please don't use patronizing expressions like "spoonfeed" and "stubborn". Markussep 14:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You and I would be best to agree to disagree and move on, because as long as you patronize my input, I will patronize back. I am not one to stand and "take it" without dishing it out, period. Those companies are geographic experts (because I included others such as Rand McNally). As for shortened names, it is a difference to 'shorten' a name in usage, such as "South Korea" instead of the full name, as compared to using a name like "South Tyrol" as a substitute for the proper province name. This article is the only article that doesn't conform to the other "Province of (XXX)" articles (excluding, of course, Aosta, which is autonomous and a valley). It really does need to be changed. The proposals are incredibly sensitive and respectful - the naming such as "Province of Bozen-Bolzano (South Tyrol)" which is official and would designate the proper title. With some users attempting to remove it from Wikiproject Italy, it smacks of a desire to be 'special'. It is a diverse province, yes... but the focus is now on ensuring that correct naming is used. Period. Rarelibra 15:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Support. I fully agree with Markussep. --PhJ 19:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support. I think it best to keep it under the most common name in this case. Anything about the administration and the local government can be integrated into the main article. Gryffindor 22:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Keep in mind that the article does not conform to the "Province of (XXX)" format that the other Provinces conform to. If a wikiproject has this as standard, then South Tyrol will have to conform as well. The naming from the provincial government is what is more/most popular, not just South Tyrol. I have shown many cases of this. One cannot assume that reference to "South Tyrol" means all in the same. Rarelibra 23:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Most common name under what grounds? In your mind? The vast majority of references that were posted originally by Rarelibra show maps, encyclopedias, etc., etc. that list Bolzano or Bolzano (Bozen). I'm fine to keep South Tyrol in the title, but the actual provincial name has to be there too.. i.e., Province of Bolzano (South Tyrol). Taalo 00:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Support ack gryffindor--Martin Se 22:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Support. Obviously. —Nightst a llion (?) 15:50, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
Support, the article isn't about the province alone. Split would be an option. --Pjacobi 12:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC

~~-Support, what else? Mai-Sachme 17:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)-~~

no single-use accounts [4] or sock puppets please..... posted by 71.106.204.137 07:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Please, Taalo, sign with your proper username. PhJ 19:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Support, I'm not a sock puppet. Check it with Ripe [5]Mai-Sachme 17:12, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

But are you a single-use account? That would also be in violation. Rarelibra 17:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I affirm I'm not a single-use account. I'm just a new member and one of my main interests is obviously South Tyrol :-) Mai-Sachme 17:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Let Mai-Sachme vote, it is just better illustrating an interesting trend. :} welcome to en.wikipedia dude. Taalo 22:26, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Support. I know where South Tyrol was, I'd have had to search for "Province of Bolzano". Most common name in my idiolect. So it would be inconsistent. That's what we have redirects for. Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:43, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to comment here. You know where South Tyrol is, but you apparently don't know where Bolzano (Bozen) is? I havn't seen a much more easy-to-understand province naming system than what is used in Italy. The provinces are almost always simply named after the largest city... i.e. Province of Trento, Province of Bolzano, Province of Verona, Province of Milan, etc., etc., etc. Taalo 16:20, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Support, albeit with disclaiming too much expertise. I'm an American English speaker, and all the references I've read have referred to the area as South Tyrol. Now, this is probably because the area is most notable during the WWI-WWII era and that would be the proper name around then; I claim no expertise about what is in common usage now. But, frankly, even if Bolzano is more common now, the area is still mostly famous for its tug-of-war back then. Just looking at the article as it stands right now, and almost all of it is on its history as South Tyrol, and the modern stuff seems to focus on relations with Austria and the like. Maybe this is a case of horribly misplaced focus, but as long as the region's history as "South Tyrol" overwhelms its modern status as Bolzano, that seems the proper title for the article. SnowFire 21:08, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

SupportIn the german Wikipedia the article is called Südtirol and the correct translation is South Tyrol. Hence it is the appropriate name an as there is no official English name, the german one should be taken as a reference. --138.232.249.151 17:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

welcome to en.wikipedia. did you hear about us on de.wikipedia by any chance? ^_- sorry though, no single-use accounts. Taalo 22:02, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Support as above. The region is the "South Tyrol" in English; I continue to suggest a separate article on the modern provincial government. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the region is South Tyrol in English, but it is also Alto Adige in common English usage. Anyway, the voting is making it pretty clear we need a split -- as you suggest (and many others have as well): one page for the province of bz, one for the history of aa/st. I'll ask Mets501 to see what he recommends for us proceeding in this direction. Taalo 01:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Alto Adige is much less common. But why don't you just write the new article without waiting for Mets? All I could do would be to copy over the present section on Government and the links. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 04:04, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree Alto Adige is much less common, but fine.. agree to disagree, etc., etc. I don't think we need any unilateral moves like that at this point. I'd rather we have someone like Mets help decide step 2 rather than any of us (who are directly involved in this debate) making such a decision; you know what I mean? Also, we already have the History of South Tyrol page which more or less duplicates the history section of the province right now. Taalo 04:13, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Support See the discussion above and the official server of Bozen county reporting, amongst others, the right English name.--Clamengh
You know, don't you think it is kind of funny to point to a website that is named provincia.bz, explicitly mention the words "bozen county", and then after all this say that south tyrol is the "right" English name? :)))) In my opinion it is clear there are various correct names: one can refer to the region/area as Alto Adige or South Tyrol. The province is Bolzano/Bozen/BZ. my regards, Taalo 03:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- Emes, what is this, remote control voting? :P [6] (yes, i am joking around :) Taalo 03:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Support Wikipedia is not about going on fitghting 1st world war or supporting fascist italianization of German speaking areas. The correct English name is the obvious translation of the (linguistically affine) German version. Regards--10caart 13:05, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you are right, obviously using Province of Bolzano-Bozen is just a complete italianization. o_O congrats on bringing in the word fascist too. :} Taalo 15:48, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Support If I am not wrong there's an official English name issued by the local institution, and this is South Tyrol.--OlBergomi 09:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Another user totally missing the point, anyway also Alto Adige is ufficial, but here we are talking about naming this article as all the other articles about Italian provinces are named. --Checco 16:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Whatever, Emes also put out the call to his Lombard Wikipedia friends (the last three votes). *sigh* Taalo 17:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Support - this is the English language edition of Wikipedia, and South Tyrol is the commonly used and understood name. "Province of Bolzano" means nothing to most English-speakers. -- Mais oui! 12:22, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Support. I stated my reasons before. --Kl4Uz 19:03, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

A search with google USA today gives the following results:

"South Tyrol" 847,000 hits
"Province of Bolzano" 54,500 hits
"Province of Bolzano-Bozen" 14,800 hits
"Province of South Tyrol" 805 hits
"Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol" 354 hits
"Province of Bozen-South Tyrol" 148 hits

(Idea by user Taalo ) noclador 02:04, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

A search with Google USA today gives the following results:

"Tirol" 22,400,000 hits
"Tyrol" 4,120,000 hits

A search with Google USA today gives the following results:

"South Tirol" 1,440,000 hits
"South Tyrol" 1,260,000 hits

-- Hrödberäht (gespräch) 19:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

LOL!! Noclador, your logic is a bit faulty. :} You have to compare apples to apples. You can't run a test with "Province of ..." and then with just a single phrase like South Tyrol. I'll continue the table for you below:

"Bolzano" 16,900,000 hits
"Bolzano-Bozen" 669,000 hits
"Bolzano-South Tyrol" 10,800 hits
"Bozen-South Tyrol" 695 hits

...and so are you going to change your vote to Province of Bolzano since you appear to purely go by Google hits? Let me sell you the Bolzano-Bozen or Bolzano-South Tyrol instead. :} Taalo 03:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Taalo

Hmm,... the Province of Bolzano is surely known to most people as South Tyrol- I think that a vast majority of people don’t even know that the official name is different from the commonly known and used “South Tyrol”. I assume that most people come to this article by typing in “South Tyrol” and there is a redirect to this page. If this is indeed so, then I will put my support behind the official name “Province of Bolzano-Bozen”. noclador 03:40, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, don't let me twist your arm (*twists noclador's arm!*). :} Do consider that your assumption might come from your language/national background. Anyway, "Province of Bolzano" comes up most often and "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" comes second. I'm very willing to take one that measures less English usage but instead benefits everyone by a shared Italian/German naming (my same opinion on the region page). This and the province is shown on most English maps as Bolzano, Bolzano (Bozen), Bolzano-Bozen, etc. Anyway, so I don't have to hear again that I'm trying to delete the word South Tyrol from Earth, I'm perfectly fine with Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol as well... Taalo 03:59, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

***Please note there is a similar poll at the regional page, currently at Trentino-South Tyrol***

How do you all reconcile your decision against fundamental English (and politically-neutral) references that show Province of Bolzano-Bozen? [7] Yes, I know they are listing many regions in English and provinces in Italian, but the fundamental point is the province is commonly known as Bolzano and/or Bolzano-Bozen. Isn't a basic compromise to use Province of Bolzano-Bozen or Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol? Or is it actually coming down to a simple fight to keep 100% instead of a shared solution? A 50/50 solution in a region that is fundamentally Roman/Italy and Germanic/Austrian. Taalo 19:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Google: "Province of Bolzano -wiki" (49,400 hits); "Province of Bolzano-Bozen" -wiki (11,900 hits); "Province of South Tyrol -wiki" (700 hits); "Province of Bolzano-South Tyrol -wiki" (353 hits); "Province of Bozen-South Tyrol -wiki" (128 hits) Taalo 19:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

And South-Tyrol has 855.000 hits. 85.124.8.189 17:22, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

read above Anon. You can't compare "province of ..." to just a single phrase...

Well, this is your POV, and I say we can compare it..."South Tyrol" and "Provinca of..." are synonyms. Mai-Sachme 17:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You are way wrong, Mai-Sachme. One is a proper title, the other is a common name usage. They are NOT synonymous. Rarelibra 17:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but if we are talking about Google-hits, you can't say, we count only "Province of South Tyrol". If you're checking, how many Google-hits has Italy, you don't count only hits for "Italian Republic", which is the proper title of the country, or not? Mai-Sachme 17:33, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The name is incorrect and not in keeping with the "Province of (XXX)" title that is used by all the other articles. The point in the hits is not to use common usage, otherwise we can check other common usage and the number hits will greatly vary by name. Truly, your assessment of a 'synonym' is incorrect. Rarelibra 18:07, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

And who says that we must use a "Province of XXX" title? Aren't we looking for the most common used English name for this province? Wikipedia does not use everywhere the official titles... And by the way: Synonyms are different words with an identical or very similar meaning, so South Tyrol and Province of South Tyrol are obviously synonyms, because both of them descrive the same geografical region in northern Italy. 85.124.8.189 18:22, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

First - you missed the point, so I will help you. The title "Province of South Tyrol" is still incorrect, as it doesn't reflect the real name translated into English (which is "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol", if you didn't know). Also, in keeping with consistency (which wikipedia suggests), the "Province of (XXX)" is a standard to use because the others conform this way... otherwise, it makes this province seem 'special' when it isn't (as an administrative unit of Italy, that is - don't twist my words). Also, do not confuse long names to official titles, either. And geographical region is quite different than administrative province. It really seems like we need a split for the article - one article for the geographical region of South Tyrol, the other for the administrative province of Italy. Rarelibra 18:38, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help :-) Yes I confused the long term with the official title. But my opinion is still, that we should use the most common name for this specific region, which is without doubts South Tyrol, so I can't agree in this point. But could you define the difference between the region and the administrative province? Mai-Sachme 18:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't take this the wrong way, but you are one of the many who appear to be shrouded in the past tense. It doesn't matter what it was called up until WWI. The fact of the matter is, the modern-day present has it a part of the Italian government and assigned a proper name by such government. It is like saying that Wrocŀaw, Poland should be called "Breslau" because it once held that name for many years. Fact of the matter is, the name changed because of historical events. As far as the 'region' you keep referring to, the 'region' of Tyrol (or, properly, "Tirol") is one that encompassed what is now part of Austria and part of Italy. The geographical 'region' includes three "sub-regions" (or individual named 'regions') of South Tyrol, North Tyrol, and East Tyrol. The province is defined by administrative boundary and governmental definition, and viewed differently by the historical population that resides in the 'region'. This is the case in Liberia, Africa (and many other places). Governments went in and "drew a line in the sand" to define an administrative entity, which is wholly different than the region known to the populace. In Liberia, for example, there are tribal "regions" whose boundaries fall over those of the administrative boundaries (and those of the surrounding countries).

So there is a difference in referring to the region of South Tyrol and the province of Bozen-South Tyrol (or Bolzano in Italian, etc). There is also NO historical reference that would create a valid naming convention such as "it was called that up until WWI." Otherwise, most of Europe could still be called "Rome", right? ;) Rarelibra 19:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

Is the above a straw poll, in that we add our choices, or is it similar to where you only offer support for one choice? Rarelibra 20:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know, it seems at this point we have a much wider set of bounds than we have on the regional page. It seems there we have been able to narrow down quite a bit. The province page is still in a bit of a flux. :} Taalo 20:39, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Italy

I would very much appreciate if Martin Se would stop deleting the WikiProject Italy header. This is the second time already. Taalo 00:16, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin Se has been warned on his talk page. Even by deleting the warning, he is recognizing that he has read the content and understood - whether he chooses to abide by it or not. If he continues, he will be reported to an admin and will quite possibly be blocked for his vandalism. Rarelibra 14:00, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Please release South Tyrol from WP Italy

The Lemma will never improve while it is part of wikiproject italy--Martin Se 01:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As You See I choose an other way (I took WP Italy away only one time)--Martin Se 17:23, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin Se - deal with the fact that this province is a part of Italy, thus, a part of Wikiproject Italy. Rarelibra 17:30, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

As taalo sugested earlier, we could rate it also as Part of Wp austria

Maybe we could improve the Article (internationally Lemma) together--Martin Se 17:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, it may qualify for Wikiproject Austria - a very weak qualification, mind you. This is a province, and it is a part of the country of Italy and the region of Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol. It is very much a part of qualifying for Wikiproject Italy. Based on the history with Austria, if you wish to elect it for Wikiproject Austria, then take the initiative. Just don't go around removing tags because of some obsession you have. Period. Rarelibra 17:39, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

How about leaving it in both projects, maybe that could satisfy both sides? Gryffindor 21:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Gryffindor - I never had (have) a problem with it being in both... just in the removal of the one flag that was quite apparent. Rarelibra 21:54, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. It matches my user page now.. LOL. I'd suggest not doing this on Province of Trento and Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol though. That would probably be stretching things a bit, and maybe a bit provocative as well... hah! and wow, Gryffindor is keen on satisfying both sides. I'm proud of you, and I'm not being (that) sarcastic. ^_- Taalo 22:19, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Hey, the Austrian flag is bigger than the Italian flag! $@#$!%!@#!$&*&@@! and @$@)(*$)!@*!!! Taalo 22:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA. Jeez. Now that's good humor. :) Rarelibra 22:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] this is NOT the way to do things

for a user to go to the German wikipedia and try to get people to come over and stuff the ballot box is just completely wrong [8]. This is simply adding bias on top of bias and is completely against the spirit of trying to work together to find a compromise.

wieder ärger in en.wikipedia [Bearbeiten] Diesmal soll en:Trentino-South Tyrol umbenannt werden, bitte beteiligt euch an der Abstimmung--Martin Se !? 12:35, 5. Mär. 2007 (CET)

annoyance again in en.wikipedia. they want to change the name of trentino-south tyrol again. please go and take part in the poll.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benutzer_Diskussion:Emes posted by 71.106.204.137 08:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. What Martin Se has done is very much political. Because of this, I have chosen to extend the same invitation to users within the Italian wiki. We will have to allow this time during the week for any and all interested to respond. Rarelibra 16:51, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Great. An edit war between the Italian wiki and the German wiki on how we name things on the English wiki. There must have been another way to handle it, such as informing an admin here and at German Wikipedia and having the offending user(s) blocked. What you've done is escalate the war of words here. This is ALSO not the way we do things here. --SigPig |^{SEND - OVER} 19:36, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

If you follow it on BOTH pages, you'll see it was removed from both German and Italian wiki. There doesn't seem to be control (esp. with Martin Se) - but please, don't attempt to tell me what to do. What I attempted to do (and has been changed) is not canvassing or as you stated "escalate the war of words" - if we have one side of the playing field, we will have the other, plain and simple. Rarelibra 19:50, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

What is political to ask his friends to help if needed?--Martin Se 22:19, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Martin, I guess if we need to explain this to you, we sure are not going to make any progress anytime this year... Taalo 22:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

100% in favour of Taalo this time. I have friends too (if that doesn’t sound too Malvolio-ish! And I suppose you, User:Emes, do have enough English to get the reference…). But I wouldn’t dream of trying to persuade them to join up to en.wikipedia in order to support me on some half-arsed naming dispute. And quite frankly your record on putting any work into improving the English-language version of the encyclopedia is not very impressive. So I think you should apologise for your behaviour. And very clearly. Alternatively find a friendly admin to get me banned for making a personal attack. —Ian Spackman 17:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I Now know who Malvolio is, but I'd like to explain my Idea of political action: including Nones dialect as Nones language in raeto romance ([9])

Chancing order of Names saying that ladin was spoken there earlier ([10]; Talk - and what with Meranum and Bauzanum)

according to this we shut move this page to Land an der Etsch und im Gebirge--Martin Se 19:39, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess you are missing the point Emes. If we want to come up with the order I-D-L, that is fine. It can't be only the way you all want it, just as it can't be only the way I want it. One user attempted to make it D-I-L on some pages, and I wonder where he got his consensus for that. He was very quick to call other's edits vandalism though. Anyway, you should probably be aware that one of the original languages of the region was this provincial so-called Latin of the Alps (i.e. the languages like Ladin, Nones, etc., which are a conservative form of Latin according to researchers). These predate German, and of course Standard Italian (Tuscan-based) in the region. I really find it a bit difficult to understand why you have attempted to delete Nones and Solardo from the list of Italian languages. Taalo 16:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Back on topic, Emes, since you don't seem to understand - what you did by trying to post only on German wiki is to "tip the scale" politically and selfishly to ensure that your POV stands in the voting/polls. This is unethical and against wiki rules. If I were an admin, you would already have been blocked to think about your actions. Rarelibra 13:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

May not be worth the time to explain; see mine and Ian's comments above. Taalo 16:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Since my language is German & I am an editor of the german wikipedia and co-superviser of Wp:South Tyrol I have answered questions asked there

Nones is not yet a recognized language but a dialect (someone ist trying to say nones is a ladin dialect)

Of solarno I've never heard (Do You know how to spell it in italian?)

de:Italien#Sprachen gives you a bether idea of languages in Italy and it:Lingue parlate in Italia does'nt mention nones; It:Nones gives You a good idea:

Il Nones (Nònes) o Noneso è, secondo alcuni, una variante della lingua ladina
 appartenente al gruppo reto-romanzo della famiglia delle lingue indoeuropee.

--Martin Se 11:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Martin, I'm not a linguist, so I really do not fully understand the exact differences of a dialect versus a language. Some professors I spoke with said Nones is a language and a variant of Rhaeto-Romance. Maybe Nones is a dialect of Ladin, maybe Ladin is a dialect of Nones. boh! :-) Regardless, I just really like how these set of languages sound. I believe the spelling is Solandro, and it is the language of Val di Sole. But you are correct, neither Solandro or Nones has any official status in Trentino --- as enjoyed by Ladin in BZ. It makes me curious now if other Italian languages/dialects such as Pietmontese, Calabrian, etc. have any official status. Anyway, take a drive sometime up to the Val di Non and Val di Sole and see how the languages match up. :} I seem to remember being able to understand the Romansh in CH quite well. regards, Taalo 16:58, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... interesting. You are "co-supervisor" of an article on wiki, huh? Since when did those titles become available? Did you crown yourself with this title? You see - that is probably the most pompous thing I have ever heard someone say on wiki. Co-supervisor... right. Emes - NO ONE is a 'supervisor' of a wiki article... Rarelibra 12:45, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

don't know if this is the same in en, but in de every Portal and Project has one or two people who supervise new article concerning a project or portal, answer to question at the project /portal we call the person Betreuer (supervisor) de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt_Portale/N-Z and de:Wikipedia:WikiProjekt Wartung--Martin Se 17:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Order of Names

see: Talk:Bolzano#Order of Names

[edit] Take a break

And watch THIS VIDEO if you haven't had a chance. Interesting concept on the Freedom of Speech in the Tirolean region of Austria. Taalo - if you watch this and apply the thought process, you will understand more the single-minded approach of members of the community, and why it is more difficult to accept a neutral solution. There is nothing wrong with this approach at all - it is a result of single-minded teaching of history to the point of the mentioned "status quo majority". Rarelibra 17:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, I really think he is overly harsh singling out the Austrian (by the way, did he mention Tyrol??) people like that, but making this point about humanity in general, what he says is of course dead on. Also the whole concept of how the majority of people process what is true or false, what is right or wrong, is definitely the single-minded approach which causes most of the problems in our world. It leads up perfectly to the organized religion bit. I think he doesn't make it clear though that he dislikes the organized part, not the religions themselves (or at least I hope so). I find no real problem of religion, but it is definitely the humans who take control and impose their own ideas of what God wants, which cause all the problems. Did you mean to post this on my talk page rarelibra, because I'm imaginging a giant WTF from everyone very soon. LOL. Taalo 04:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

for naming discussions see also (official tourism site)--Martin Se 11:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

He quite directly busted on both Austrians and Tirol itself. BUT the point I was making is that he mentions that in Austria only one form is history is allowed to be taught (the Austrian-approved history)... and I was attempting to point out part of the reason that some of the users may be single-minded in their approach. It helps me understand those users more - and part of the reason why I am trying to approach things with a neutral and acceptable viewpoint. I am pleased for the consensus on the region page - and hope the same can be accomplished in other pages. Rarelibra 12:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so because the region has no importance and cities and South Tyrol are other things

I don't look youtube videos and don't think that this video pictures the reality--Martin Se 17:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

In what way is Christopher Hitchens's speech helpful for this discussion? I don't support censorship and political imprisonment either (even though David Irving is a Nazi supporter). But what does that matter for naming this article? Btw, imho Taalo is not less single-minded than his opponents. Actually single-mindedness can be a good trait, but trying to achieve one's aims by offending other people is bad. I hope we agree on that. -- PhJ 18:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually if someone has even somewhat of an open mind, the video Rarelibra posted is extremely useful with regards to these discussions. It seems you can't hold that thought very long though before deciding to dig into me again on the talk page, eh? :} Hey, at least I feel I'm one that can be open to changing my opinion; are you? I hope you realize that in your own paragraph you have just chosen to make this particular discussion personal by explicitly bringing my name into it. You have just attempted to offend me to achieve your own aim. One might call that hypocritical. I'll just echo what Rarelibra said: relax dude. :} Taalo 20:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I'm not so familiar with David Irving except from what I read on BBC. Is he actually a supporter of Nazis; or is that being implied because he doesn't believe in the scope of the holocaust? Just curious. Taalo 21:24, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe it is only implied. Rarelibra 22:05, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, David Irving was accused of denying the Holocaust, which is a criminal offence in Austria (like in several other European countries, see Holocaust denial#Laws against Holocaust denial). The incidents leading to his imprisonement took place years ago. Irving gave several lectures to some far right student fraternities, where he denied the existence of gas chambers in Auschwitz etc. His claims don't make him a Nazi supporter by itself, however to judge this question is not within the scope of the law, which was introduced in 1947. In general, there seems to be a tendency in Europe to introduce similar kind of laws (France and Switzerland introduced "Armenian genocide denial laws", a Turkish politician was convicted by a Swiss court some days ago), therefore I think it was a bit unfair of Hitchens to single out Austria. Gugganij 22:41, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

As you can see by the title, it says "take a break". Chill. The relevance to the article? To show that single-minded focus is sometimes from the programming of upbringing. And you are so far off by assuming that I was inferring to Taalo as the one being single-minded. Next time when you are confused, just ask... I'll gladly explain. Rarelibra 19:21, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

If there had been Nazi-fascism in the United States of America, they would probably understand why Democracy needs to be protected. And Democracy can only be granted if those, that already proved they are able to gain power, drag the World into war and kill millions of humans, are silenced and aren't granted the right of free speech on that matter. --Kl4Uz 19:17, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Excuse me, but is this how we are going to do things?

It literally took months to push people into a compromise, and then you read stuff like this?? [11]

Hi, here (unfortunately) I am afraid it looks like the question has been settled. However, I think it will need to be soon posed again towards the contrary move. Now I will lobby a bit for South Tyrol. See you soon, --Clamengh 20:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

can you people not get it into your skulls to compromise/share? This isn't a continous battle to grab everything for one side. Surreal :( Taalo 06:37, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, why not? Wikipedians engaging in debates is an essential part of wikipedia's culture, so, there's nothing bad in this. Thank you --OlBergomi 09:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Regional Assembly/Parliament

Our Sepp Kusstatscher article states that he was a "Member (SVP), South Tyrol Regional Assembly" between 1988-1993. And the South Tyrolean People's Party article refers to a "regional parliament".

What is the actual name (in German and/or Italian) of the body being referred to here, and why on earth is there zero mention of it in this article?!? It seems like fairly fundamental information that this area has its own democratically-elected assmbly/parliament. N'est ce pas? -- Mais oui! 04:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The Province of Bolzano is a Province and, like all the other provinces in Italy, it has a Provincial Council. The members of the Provincial Council of Bolzano (35 members), together with the members of the Provincial Council of Trento (35 members), form the Regional Council (70 members) of Trentino-Alto Adige Region, as all the Italian regions have an elected Regional Council. These Regional Councils are named "Regional Council", but there are some regions which have different names for it, but this is not the case of T-AA region, whose specificity is of having only one election (for the Provincial Councils and the Regional Council), while all the other Regions have separate elections for Provincial Councils and Regional Councils. This is because T-AA is a region different from the others and most powers are given to the Autonmous Provinces of Bolzano and Trento. --Checco 10:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Errr... ta, I think. I note that you are using the term "Province of Bolzano" as a synonym for South Tyrol. That is just bound to confuse people.

So why is none of that (fairly important) information in the article? -- Mais oui! 11:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

First the official name of the province is "Autonomous Province of Bolzano", sometimes extended in "Autonomous Provincia di Bolzano - Alto Adige/Südtirol", second this information is not "fairly important", beacuse it is the same for all the Provinces of Italy. --Checco 11:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Mmmm... why are you so keen to exclude this elementary information? And as you have already stated yourself, it is not exactly the same as the rest of Italy. This looks increasingly like an intentional attempt to exclude fundamental encyclopaedic information, rather than the oversight which it could have been. I am attaching the POV tab to the article until this glaring gap is remedied. -- Mais oui! 11:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I am not the only editor in Wikipedia. If you want to add information, add it. Anyway there are two things you didn't notice: 1) it is the regional institutions which are differently elected from the other regions, but here we are talking about the provincial insititutions, which are elected similarly to all the other 109 provinces of Italy; 2) I would find strange to add information about the provincial institutions in a page which has a different name from the Province itself (see the names of Provinces of Italy, all are named "Province of XXXXX"). --Checco 11:51, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Province of Bolzano redirects to this article. They are exactly the same thing. -- Mais oui! 11:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I know this, but I think that if this article is to speak about the Province needs to be named "Province of Bolzano", with "South Tyrol" as a different page (see discussions above) or as a redirect. --Checco 12:03, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope. That would be a crystal clear breach of Wikipedia:Content forking. -- Mais oui! 12:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree with you. See discussions above. Many people talked about splitting the article. --Checco 12:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Just because "many people" want to create a massive content fork, that does not mean it will happen. If you do split the article you will very likely end up at ANI. -- Mais oui! 12:20, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you tolerate a different opinion from yours? --Checco 12:23, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I can. But what I utterly reject is the blatant political POV going on at this article. Stop playing games, and start actually improving the article. The reason I came here at all was because our coverage of this topic was woefully inadequate. I daresay that that suits some people just fine. Goodbye. -- Mais oui! 12:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Presume good faith, indeed I'm here in order to improve the article and the section about Provinces of Italy. As all the articles relating Italian Provinces, are named "Province of XXXXX", I entered this talk in order to bring uniformity also to this article. I think that it will be an improvement. A person that is searching for Italian Provinces might be confused by the fact that this province is named differently from the other ones and to think (as you maybe did) that this is one of the Regions of Italy not a Province. --Checco 12:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the official name (in Italian) is "Provincia di Bolzano", however, the official provincial government website has the official name, translated into English, as "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol". That is pretty clear to me... and I have a hard time understanding why others cannot see the complexity of multiple names. Rarelibra 13:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Me too. --Checco 13:34, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to display on this talk page, these are the official names, translated by the provincial government:

English - Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol
German - Autonomen Provinz Bozen - Südtirol
Italian - Provincia Autonoma di Bolzano - Alto Adige
Ladin - Provinzia Autonòma de Balsan - Südtirol
French - Province Autonome du Bozen - Tyrol du Sud

Rarelibra 14:00, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

The English official name should be Autonomous Province of Bolzano - Alto Adige/South Tyrol. --Checco 14:21, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Checco, I don't think it's up to wikipedia to decide what's the official name of the province. An official name is a name given by an authority or public body. Not us. Rarelibra, there are some strange things about the "official" names you gave, e.g. French wouldn't capitalize "autonome" (probably same for Italian), and "du" suggests that Bolzano is "le Bozen" in French, which is wrong. "Autonomen" in German is 2nd or 3rd case feminine, not the nominative ("autonome"). Where did you get this from? Markussep 18:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Markussep - I'll go ahead and hold your hand while I walk you HERE to the website of the provincial government, as is referenced on the main page of this very article. Go ahead and lecture them on their use of languages, not me. Rarelibra 19:16, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, this explains the 2nd case in the German text ("Offizieller Server der Autonomen Provinz Bozen - Südtirol"). The French version of the page is very rudimentary, so I'm not surprised by these mistakes, I don't think a professional translator (or native speaker) was involved. Markussep 19:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

One of my fellow MBA students is from Veneto. I was discussing the whole 'controversy' of naming with him. When I referred to the province, he said "ah, yes - Bolzano, or Südtirol". He speaks both German and Italian (his mother being Austrian). We discussed how the region was passed over to Italy and how the extremists later tried to revolt to have it rejoin under Austria (as annotated in the history section of the article). He said even to this day, the Austrian-descent residents will claim that they are Austrian (not Italian), and only use an Austrian passport, etc. But interestingly enough, he tells me that the region is one of the best in Italy - low unemployment, prosperous, good services, etc. When I asked about the Bozen name, he said "yes, because the region is dual-lingual, both languages are used." So it is suffice to say the English-translated name is "Bozen - South Tyrol" while the Italian name is "Bolzano - Alto Adige" and the German name is "Südtirol". Rarelibra 20:39, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

But this is politics... anyway the province will continue to be part of Italy for two reasons: 1) it has a 30% of Italians which does not favor independence or annexion by Austria; 2) the province has so much privileges that also the remaining 70% prefers to status quo. Ok, this is just politics, sorry... --Checco 21:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway I'll get out at least for a while from this discussion. There's too much ideology and I can't understand why people reject a neutral solution for the title, as the "Province of XXXXX" one, as all the other articles about Provinces of Italy. --Checco 21:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, remember: the Province of Bolzano is a province, not a region. Bye, bye. --Checco 21:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Referred to your "politics": 1) less than 30% are italians 2) an opinion poll has shown that 54% of the "other" would like to be reunificated with Austria (understandable by watching the Italian behaviour there in the last months) 3) the South Tyrolean population has got the right (part of the UN-People's Right) to claim for self-determination and decide for a reunification every moment it wants to. The status quo is so far not sure. -- I.P. 82.54.69.74, 23 March 2007, 15:52 (UTC)

I have two questions for you and then a comment. 1) What do you mean when you say, "understandable by watching the Italian behaviour there in the last months"? That statement is rather vague and a bit crude. 2) Who do you define as "Italians"? The Ladin speakers are argueably Italian people, and as well, all German-speakers are not necessarily Germanic. Now to my comment: Lets look at your numbers for a second. 69% are German speakers. 54% of those (apparently) would like to join Austria. So multiplying 69% by 54% gives us roughly 37%. That means almost twice the amount of people (63%) do not favour joining Austria. Regardless, it looks like the extremists still exist in this region. Unfortunate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.109.186.171 (talk • contribs).

I agree with you, indeed Italian population is probably the 20-25% of the total, anyway there's the problem that it is concentrated in Bolzano (65-70% Italians), in the centre of the province. Anyway even I defenitely support South Tyrol's independence, but this is again politics... --Checco 16:17, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

Irony is that the province is already autonomous and prosperous, and you still have these angry and extreme people. My hope is these individuals are in the minority and simply use Wikipedia as their puplit. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.109.186.171 (talk • contribs).

In order to be more precise, the 2001 census gave these figures for German-speaking South Tyroleans: 70% in the whole Province (330,000 out of 475,000), 23% in Bolzano. --Checco 17:15, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

According to the UN people's right charta, the Italians in this province are not allowed to take part at a such referendum, and neither the government of Rome, nor the Austrian one is allowed to interfere. And with the "behaviour" I meant the continuous agitations by the italian right-wing-parties and the deep hate against the german-speaking population. For example, watch this on youtube. Then, you called me an extremist? An extremist doesn't care about rights and democracy. Listen, you surely have your own nation, a country were you belong to - they not. How might you understand, how people there feel? Also Italians has long time fought for their independence, for to have their own state. And so, it was their right. Why shouldn't the South Tyroleans have a country where they belong to?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.54.69.74 (talk • contribs).

Are you talking with me? I'm definitely in favour of independence of South Tyrol and I don't have a country I belong to, indeed I'm a Venetian independentist. My opinion is that South Tyrol won't have independence 'cos South Tyroleans have so much privileges in Italy (for example the State spends for health care in the Province three times the money that spends for Veneto) that they won't renounce easily to them. Anyway I repeat it: I'm strongly in favour of South Tyrol's independece, strongly in favour. Definitely. But this is politics... the reality is that both South Tyrol (which is not a region but a province, named "Province of Bolzano") and Veneto are part of Italy. --Checco 10:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, this doesn't sound right to me, this "According to the UN people's right charta". How could it possibly be correct to allow a referendum that only allows so-called "Germans" to take part? Only 100% "pure" German? Only ones that can trace their family back four generations? Five generations? Then the other people who live in BZ/AA/ST have no rights or chance to participate in this democracy? That would be extreme, I'm sorry to say -- and so I don't quite believe this is true. Do you see the irony then in your statement. If you care yourself about rights and democracy, would you want a referendum done in such a way? Anyway, I'll have to check out the youtube video when I get home, but I don't put too much into what tiny groups of small-minded people do (no matter they be German, Italian, etc.). By the way, do you believe it is only Italian right-wing parties that have a deep hatred? You don't think the opposite also happens? i.e., there are two sides to every coin. Anyway, in some ways I do not understand the whole "independence" mentality. I would think humans would want to work to be together (EU, etc.). If the other side is to "be independent", where does it stop? To every town, neighborhood, house? I think the situation in the EU, Italy, etc. is pretty darn good actually. People seem to become too bored and easily forget how bad things really can be. Icsunonove 23:04, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I had a chance to watch the video. While I feel it is quite immature and nonsense what these hooligans do, I have to say this: it all unfortunately reminds me how I have not recently felt so ashamed as after I witnessed how the German press and people belittled Italy and Italians prior to the match against Italy in the 2006 WC. It was profound racism, racism from a country and people who should know a lot better after what happened in the 20th century. That popular attitude can hardly be compared to a bunch of idiot right-wing football hooligans jumping around like clowns in Bolzano/Bozen, and note that the worse thing I hear them say is, "if you are not German, jump". Well, I don't think many Germans in BZ support the Azzurri... hah. man, relax people... Icsunonove 06:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[12] my God there are some bored people in the mountains. *rolls eyes* All I see is more of the same as above; people continuously trying all they can do to keep hate alive, "us" against "them", right? I guess that puts a bit of meaning into little peoples lives...... shameful. Icsunonove 06:56, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

To the anonymous commentator: could you please state where you found this information on a UN document? Thanks... --Adriano 11:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Also I tried to find it, but I had no results. I add my signature to the question of Adriano. --Checco 11:33, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It's interesting to discuss with you. Hopefully it will go on - without anger asf. Firstly, I'm not interested in such a referendum. I have only said, that there would be the possibility. If you want, I have some of the texts by the UN, but I found them only in German. Secondly, these were not only hooligans; this is the classical situation in South Tyrol/Alto Adige. I confess, I'm a South Tyrolean - no extremist! -, and I have to say that I'm afraid of the next football games etc. Every time somebody was insulted or injured. "Germans", also if they support the Azzurri, don't dare to leave their homes. Thirdly, to Icsunonove: Approximately every South Tyrolean supports the Azzurri. Whom should they otherwise support? Don't speak about Germany! We have nothing to do with them. And please, don't play down the racism by the Italians. It hurts me. No "German" one has ever dared to say similar things against Italians. Fourthly, it was not "if you are not German, jump", but "Who doesn't jump is a German/Tyrolean". Whom, do you think, they adressed? Immagine somebody would say, "who doesn't jump is a negro". Maybe now you understand, what's racist. Somebody has asked me, what I meant with the "behaviour" This was an example. It's not the topic we're discussing on.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.54.69.74 (talk • contribs).

Hello Anon, first you should register an account, and second, welcome to the discussion (hopefully you don't regret it :-). I agree that all of these discussions should be without anger. It really hurts me personally to think that the "Germans" in AA/ST hate the "Italians"; or visa versa. I don't get a good feeling when I see that music video on Youtube, anymore than the video you posted. About football, come on, I even know people in Trentino who support the German team before they support the Azzurri. It is hard for me to believe everyone in AA/ST supports the Italian team, but I'll still trust your opinion, I guess. hah. It shouldn't matter though, someone in T-AA/ST should be able to support Holland if they choose! :-) Anyway, I do not attempt to play down racism by anyone. Look, you say "No German one has ever dared to say similar things against "Italians" -- that could be seen as "playing down". :-) Like I said, I was quite ashamed by a lot of the "German" attitude I saw during the WC2006. I've said many times that I am part German, so I think I have the tiny right to self-complain. I don't like this "who doesn't jump is a German", but for football hooligans this is a small reaction, that is all I was trying to say. Regardless, again, I do not like it! Sorry if you misinterpreted my feelings on the situation. It is not the easiest to get the point across always when typing text. I am very glad to meet anyone from TN and BZ on here, and most of all I hope at least in this little world of Wikipedia we can realize we are all humans from this beautiful region. I didn't grow up there, but it is still the most favourite area for me. Most of all I despise the idea of forming groups just to hate other groups. regards. Icsunonove 01:58, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] name of this province

Hmm, I don't think the name Province of Bozen - South Tyrol has been decided yet as being official; also there has been no consensus yet, right? If we go by common English usage the majority of encyclopedias and maps will show either Bolzano or Bolzano-Bozen as the name of this province. I've never seen one that shows Bozen-South Tyrol, much less Province of South Tyrol. I understand the argument that the provincial website shows Bozen-South Tyrol as their English translation on the actual HTML. However, on English translations of official government documents posted on the page in (PDF) it shows Province of Bolzano. I don't really see how we can pick-and-choose here. My opinion would be to use Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen, because: 1) It is common English usage (Brittanica, etc., etc.) 2) It already has dual-naming included which should help circumvent the name-wars (yeah, right :) Icsunonove 18:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally with your proposal and your arguments. --Checco 18:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that the problem is the official name, at least the one I have seen on road signs. It is "Provincia di Bolzano - Alto Adige" in Italian, and "Provinz von Bozen - Süd Tirol" in German (not too sure on the spelling of the latter, though)... Does not bode well.... --Adriano 20:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I obviously haven't had the chance to travel back enough recently! :)) ...or I've just missed or not payed attention to the appending of Alto Adige/Südtirol. I guess I can imagine this being done, just as I suppose one could do "Provincia di Trento - Trentino". I still don't quite buy the idea it is official though.. it looks more like aesthetics, like making signs State of Washington - Pacific Northwest. boh. :-) Icsunonove 23:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

It goes back to what I said before. The provincial website (official provincial government) states the translation, in English, as "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol." This does NOT take away from the Italian name, but simply put for English wiki use, should be as such. Rarelibra 20:58, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it is a strong argument Rarelibra, seeing the darn thing smack on the front of the bz.it website, but my argument is that on the same website they have translations of official government documents that say Province of Bolzano (and note, not with any Alto Adige/SüdTirol/South Tyrol/Happy Land :). Above all, I thought we are supposed to go with common English usage? It is hard for me to get around the fact that opening up Brittanica (etc., etc.) shows Trento and Bolzano-Bozen. This and doing a simple search on Google with "Bozen-South Tyrol" turns up almost zilch. Icsunonove 23:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the line of thought of Rarelibra, it sounds sensible to me. Gryffindor 21:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

So, if we have to consider the two names in each language, how should the name be? "Province of Bolzano-Alto Adige/Bozen-South Tyrol"? Or "Province of Bolzano/Bozen - Alto Adige/South Tyrol"? Or, of course, the same combinations but with the German version first? Mmm... Time for another mediation? --Adriano 22:08, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

As much as I would love to see the page be at Autonomous Province of Bolzano-Bozen - Alto Adige/Südtirol (hah!), I think more mediation sounds fun. Just kidding! :-) Icsunonove 23:24, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Or Autonomous Province of Bozen-Bolzano - Südtirol-Alto Adige-South Tyrol :-) --Adriano 00:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway, there's no official name in English. I don't fell surprised by the fact that in the official site in English we can read "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol", indeed the site is written by those who control the provincial government. --Checco 08:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it about time to close the poll? It's been running for 3 weeks now. The current #Requested move result is 9 support vs. 10 oppose, and the #First round poll has 10 "votes" for new names and 15 for the current name. No consensus for moving the article I'd say. Markussep 09:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree, Checco. The provincial government is recognized/answers to the regional and federal government of Italy. So that name is official, and is a proper English translation. That is the name we should go with, along with all the proper references to the naming in Italian, etc. Rarelibra 12:47, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't understand your argument: a site is not an official document and probably the province has no official name in English. --Checco 12:53, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyway "Province of Bolzano - South Tyrol" is obviously a better name for this page than the current "South Tyrol". --Checco 12:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

A site from an official government is official enough. As I pointed out, they have five various translations into German, Italian, English, Ladin, and French. Rarelibra 12:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with you about the officiality of a government site (at least in Italy), but I underline the fact that it is better to give to this article a name containing "Province of Bolzano", which is undoubley the official name given to this province both in Italian and in German. --Checco 13:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

You are incorrect, Checco. The official name in German is Provinz Bozen - Südtirol. I don't see "Bolzano" anywhere in there. ;) Rarelibra 13:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

"Bozen" is the German translation for "Bolzano". --Checco 13:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

And the translation they have into English is "Bozen-South Tyrol", legitimate in all cases. Rarelibra 14:19, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

I can agree with about this, but why can't we agree in naming the page "Province of Bolzano", "Province of Bozen", "Province of Bolzano - Alto Adige/Südtirol", "Province of Bolzano - South Tyrol" or "Province of Bozen - Südtirol"? I agree with all these options. --Checco 14:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I think we can reach a consensus if approached correctly. Even Gryffindor would agree upon naming it "Province of Bozen - Südtirol", but I ask why would it not be feasible to follow suit with the provincial government with "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" (in English)? The biggest thing I see is this - "South Tyrol" is officially included (and recognized) as part of the name (translated from the inclusion of "Südtirol"), so it is important to include it and give justice to this article. Having a "South Tyrol (historical)" page could help with the history of the region of South Tyrol (as included in the whole of "Tirol" - North, South, and East). Rarelibra 15:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Rarelibra, I don't think you addressed my point yet that even though the website says Province of Bozen-South Tyrol, English translations of official government documents on the website show Province of Bolzano. I'd tend to give more weight to official documents than websites. Also, there is again the issue of common English usage. Google doesn't bring up this name you suggest, nor is it shown in core English references. What is the problem with Province of Bolzano-Bozen? Icsunonove 05:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the South Tyrol (historical) part too, though it is funny that at Province of Trento Gryffindor is attempting to throw in a quick poll to change it to Trentino; of course I'm sure for the best of intentions. :-) I'd like a Trentino page as well, but not as a replacement for the Province of Trento page. Same for this article. Icsunonove 06:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I can live with "Province of Bozen - South Tyrol" (but it would be slightly better "Province of Bozen - Sütirol"). --Checco 15:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Just to add a bit more fuel to this discussion:

- The official website of this province ([13]) uses the name "Autonomous Province of Bozen - South Tyrol". Please note that the website's address follows the general rule of all Italy's official websites of provinces: provincia.(acronym formerly used for license plates).it . As it is managed by an institution it can IMHO be considered as official source.

- The English version of the Statute ([14]) says "Province of Bolzano"

- Another document ([15]) is published on the English version of this website. It written by Professor Antony Alcock from the University of Ulster (probably an English mothe tongue) and is titled "The South Tyrol Autonomy". A paragraph at page 11 is dedicated to the province's name. Here is a quotation. I highlighted the most interesting parts in bold:

They did not obtain the break up of the Region and the elevation of the Province of Bozen/Bolzano into a Region in its own right. (...) after fifty years the name of their homeland could officially be called “South Tyrol”.

Which is the best source? I would personally trust the latter. It is not official, but is was written by an (apparently) English mother tongue academic. It is a reliable, real-life source, and not a translation. In this document "South Tyrol" is widely used to indicate this province, although the use is not consistent.

Please note that, in the same paper, the expression Trentino South-Tyrol and the combination Bozen/Bolzano are widely used.

Enjoy! --Adriano 09:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your sources. I definitely support the "Province of XXXXX" solution. --Checco 10:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

As well as I. You have to see what Gryffindor is attempting to force through on Province of Trento though. It is really funny actually -- and telling. Icsunonove 18:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Stick to the topic of discussion on this talk page! :) Rarelibra 19:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, ok, I just wanted to point it out. As we are here trying to discuss things that are along similar lines, another discussion was blanked and a move request put in. :-) I think the discussions have to be joined to some extent, because both of these provinces overlay areas. I think the best way may be to do what they appear to do on IT wikipedia. Have a Province of X page and also an area page and have them interlink. Icsunonove 19:14, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Good argument. --Checco 21:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

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