Talk:Tang Dynasty

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華

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[edit] Note below

In the table of rulers, "Shao di" and "Ai di" tell you to "see note below the table", yet there is no note? -- Jpta 19:41, 27 Feb 2004 (UTC)

how can there have been five centuries of military decline for a dynasty that only lasted for three centuries? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.252.128.13 (talk • contribs).

Tang Dynasty is also the name of a famous Chinese rock band. --sgfhk321

[edit] added talk possible edid question

No mention of the Yulan magnoliaIts flowers were regarded as a symbol of purity in the Tang Dynasty and it was planted in the grounds of the Emperor's palace, shouldnt that be noted somewhere? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 206.176.103.66 (talk • contribs).

Added. Aran heru nar 05:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Possible changes and additions

First, Li Shih-min did not claim the title of "T'ang T'ai-Tsung"; these "temple names" are conferred after emperors' deaths by the new emperor and court.

Second, Li Shih-min did not "kick out" his father. He passed it to him (although probably feeling pressured enough to amount as a "kick out"). However, there was no indication that Li Shih-min would've actually forced his father out. In fact, he appeared to be a dutiful son.

Third, to speak nothing of how Li Shih-min came to power is something of an outrage. The "coup" where he killed 2 of his brothers was surely one of the most important events in chinese history - allowed him to become emperor afterall, and probably the best there ever was. Although this rightfully and already belongs to another article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Fukui (talk • contribs).

Edited per first problem. Third concern needs someone with the right knowledge, not me. As for the second, it seems common sense that if his father doesn't pass it to him, Li Shih-min would have done so - what else did he kill his two brothers for? It's not only because his two brothers are repeatedly trying to kill him, it also served as a warning for his father, e.g. "The next one is you". Aran heru nar 05:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect content

"The Emperor had three administrations (省, shěng): Military Affairs, Censorate, and Council of State. Each administration had its own job."

This sentence mixed up the three seniors of Han Dynasty with three shěng in Tang Dynasty.

The three seniors of Han led Military Affairs, Censorate, and Council of State.

The three shěng of Tang drafted policy, reviewed policy and implemented the policy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.218.199.46 (talk • contribs).

Thanks, I have edited it into: "The Emperor had three administrations (省, shěng), which were obliged to draft policies, review policies and implement the policy. There are also six divisions (部, bù) under the administration which implement the policy, which carries out different tasks." Is that ok? I don't know the English translation of the three sheng, though. Can anyone provide one? Thanks again. Aran heru nar 04:51, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm begging you! PLEASE tell me when the Dynasty started to when it ended. SHEESH!!

[edit] tang ren

ok so i know cantonese people always refer to chinese people as ' tang ren'. i was talking to a guy from fujian who always did this too. i wasnt sure if it was just cantonese people that call chinese people tang ren or are there other chinese people who do this too such as fujian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs).

Uh, táng rén isn't Cantonese...it's Mandarin. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.22.248.78 (talk • contribs).

people who speak mandarin never refer to themselves as tang ren. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs).

There should be a brief explanation at article Han Chinese. Aran heru nar 04:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cantonese

was cantonese the lingua franca of this era? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chinoiserie (talk • contribs).

The Tang Dynasty was taken over by aliens. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.22.143 (talk • contribs).

Cantonese is at best a regional patois that happens to be famous becuase it was the language of the modern gatewate to China aka Hong Kong and Guandong. It definitely was not the common tongue of the Tang Dynasty as Guandong was something of a backwater at that time and the Tang Dynasty was based in Shaanxi which is pretty much on the opposite end of China from from Guandong. Also Mandarin or Putonghua is the lingua franca of China and has been since the Qin Dynasty, Putonghua litterally means Common Together Speach, so there you go.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.48.80.214 (talk • contribs).

Incidentally it spells Guangdong.

I must disagree with you. The spoken language of the Tang people is very significantly different from the Mandarin nowadays. Most linguists would agree that Cantonese is far closer to Tang spoken language than Mandarin - perhaps even Japanese is closer. The reason of that is actually said by yourself - Guangdong was something of a backwater at that time. It was only at the Tang dynasty that the "Tang culture" reached Guangdong, and it has stayed there ever since while in the North the spoken language evolved quite rapidly to be remarkably different from Cantonese. Aran heru nar 04:55, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, although every dynasty has Mandarin, these Mandarins are not the same one. No spoken language can be the same one for thousands years. Current Mandarin is based on current Beijing spoken language, and Beijing is very far from Chang'an(Xi'an). So "Tang Mandarin" is not current Mandarin. This has been confirmed by researchers even hundreds years ago, since China has books recording pronunciations( for poem use).

But can we say which dialect is the closest to Tang's Mandarin? Researcher have done somework, but there is no widely accepted conclusion yet, and I think there won't be one,since EVERY modern dialect has enough differences from Tang's Mandarin.

Cantonese should be more similar to "Tang Mandarin" than Mandarin, but I have to say that most dialet are more similar to "Tang Mandarin" than today's Mandarin, it is not just Cantonese. And remember that we are talking about pronunciations, the written/formal anguage only has one form ( or 2, classic and current), If you listen to HongKong TVB's news and write everything down, you can't find much differences(if any) from a Mandarin one.

By the way, to say Japanese is colser to Tang language than Mandarin is a joke. Chinese(all types of Chinese) and Japanese are even not in the same language family, their structures are completly different. Maybe you mean that "some Japanese (loan) words' pronunciations are more closer to Tang's version". But it is a different story, and at the same time, some Japanese (loan) words don't. Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese have been influenced by Chinese heavily, but mostly on vocabularies, these languages themselves have nothing to do with Chinese.

why do you guys discuss this topic here, I think the "Chinese language" topic has explain this clearly enough.

[edit] Tang_dynasty.PNG

The map on this article has gross errors; first of all, there was no Balhae (Bohai) in 660 CE. Secondly, Baekje didn't have any territories in Manchuria, it was Goguryeo that had expanded in Manchuria (so those two names are actually switched). Also, Balhae and Goguryeo did not co-exist at the same time. I don't know about other states in the map (Tibetan Empires, Gokturks, etc.), but there are lots of errors regarding the states I mentioned. I'm not good with photoshop (or MS paint), so If anyone would like to make a new map or make the changes, I think it would be great. I personally like maps made by Yeu Ninje, those maps are superb. Deiaemeth 05:51, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't some distinction be made between vassal and enemy states? --SohanDsouza 10:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC) ~~Well enemy states may become vassals and vice versa.

The vassals and borders changed considerably from generation to generation during the dynasty, and I talk of its powerful years not about the entire span of its history of course. This map is ambiguous and a bit amateur but aside from labelling and ambiguous simplicity, not outright wrong. Except for the SW border :DHeaven's knight 22:49, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Korea's Role in Tang China

Korea nor Japan were Chinese tributaries at this time. Goguryeo waged war with the Tang Dynasty, and both Baekje, and Shilla were tributaries to Goguryeo. Shilla later broke its ties with Goguryeo, and launched an attack on Baekje. Later, a Shilla-Tang alliance was formed, and then the Shilla Imgeum (Sovereign) changed his title to Wang (King) to show Tang hegemony. Following the defeat of both Goguryeo and Baekje by the allied force of Shilla and Tang, Tang made an attempt to invade Shilla, but was repelled, breaking Shilla's tribute relations with Tang. Relations opened up again, but not tributary ones. The official title of the Shilla ruler was reverted to Imgeum during the war with Tang, according to Sam-guk-sa-gi.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.36.189.29 (talk • contribs).

Japan was definitely not. As for Korea, I'm not sure, because I have read a textbook that says it was. Aran heru nar 05:06, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is too POV with statements of how Tang China stretched all over Asia to the middle east. Also, Korea never paid tribute to China. Why would Korea pay tribute to an enemy? Goguryeo battled the Tang Dynasty heavily and its fall was because of its exhaustion of too many wars, including the ones Goguryeo repelled against the Sui Dynasty. I have edited the article. Good friend100 00:34, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Tang Dynasty was a GREAT Success."

This is my first post on Wikipedia, so please excuse any breaks of normal etiquette until I get used to the format.

Just a note: in the section entitled "20 Emperors of the Tang Dynasty," there's a small line after the table saying "The Tang Dynasty was a GREAT Success." I checked the history and apparently its been here since the original edit, back in 2002.

I originally wanted to delete it out entirely, but hesitated after seeing that it somehow survived over 4 years of edits. My problems with it:

Its an opinion
If its a proper argument, there's no supporting evidence
If its a quote, there's no citation

Thoughts?

Jia 23:50, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmm..I don't actually see it in edit history. Maybe a vandalism somebody missed. It's not here now, at least. Aran heru nar 05:05, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yo we are jenks students!

This really helps with homework! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.184.226.126 (talk • contribs). I'm in 6th grade and our reasources arnt to great. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.85.30.228 (talk • contribs).

Uhh..glad it helps. Goodbye. Aran heru nar 04:56, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion and cleanup

The article is seriously, seriously messy. For god's sake, Tang dynasty is the most powerful dynasty in Chinese history (and one of the most documented one), even shorter than a mere school? It needs a very, very large expansion. There's a lot to talk about Tang dynasty - the history section alone should be larger than the whole article now. Then we'll have to talk about policies, emperors, relations with other cultures, etc. etc. To make matters worse, half the data here is wrong (see talk page comments above). The map is obviously exaggerated, the era names are inaccurate, and the external links section doesn't have a link. The header is actually the whole article except from a list. Would anyone want to do the expansion and cleanup? Thanks. Aran heru nar 05:04, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, you want to write a book, long long book :) Even Japanese version is way longer than this. When we talk about history, at least the topic should mention Chu Tang, Sheng Tang, Zhong Tang, Wan Tang(sorry don't know how to spell them in English). When we talk about culture, at lease Li Bai & Du Fu should be mentioned. On the other hand, parts of the article is too detailed. I mean the Imperial examination thing. I don't it is not import, but so much Imperial examination and not a single word about poem? the article needs a good structure before too much details are added.

and the name of the empress is still incorrect, she was not named zetian, her Posthumous name is not Wu Hou, it is much longer, any Empress whoes family named is Wu can be called Wu Hou.

[edit] Removal changes

---deleted this part because it had no details. "In 751, Chinese and Arab forces met in Turkestan. The Chinese force was routed." -intranetusa

I'd performed some reorganisation - and stuck in the bit about the climate change - and a lot of that has been let alone. I'm glad of that. Also, some of the text I reorganised has been subsequently erased. As far as I'm concerned that's someone else's problem. However: I'd love to know why Intranetusa and Clee7903 removed my reference to the 751 battle ("Talas River"), and then rearranged it so that the weather change (~ 700 CE) appeared after the An Shi rebellion (756 CE).

I'm willing to accept that the Talas river battle didn't hurt the Tang army much; but it did highlight the Tang command's ongoing decline in the run-up to the An Shi rebellion, which (I submit) is important. Also it was an important point of contact between the Tang and the Abbasid world, inspiring the Tang accounts of Islam which are still worthy of study today.

To Cleo: if you want to delete a bunch of stuff or move it around, that's fine with me, but I'd appreciate it if you could explain why you did it.

To intranetusa: The details were enough for Breitbart and the AFP, dude. If it's not enough for you, then go add to it or flag it with a "{ fact }" tag. And while I appreciate that you did give a reason here, you could have organised it better.

-- Zimriel 03:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Request for Sources/Citations: Protector of Kashmir=

I am an avid reader of Chinese Imperial history and would be interested to see some more detailed references for the article--specifically on the point about the Tang dynasty being the protector of Kashmir and apparently allied with Assam (based on the map). Could someone please provides some links to expound upon this or some more citations for those who would be interested (all the sites online pertaining to this appear to be linked to the article or directly copying it? I would be interested in reading more about it.Thank you.

It appears the request above has been here for quite some time, but no one has move forward to answer it. Is is safe to say then that the statement that kashmir was a vassal state of china was unsourced and that it is a candidate for deletion? I am avid reader of Tang history and genuinely appreciate their achievements; however, I am also concerned about accuracy, since we all want as many FA's as possible on wikipedia. I wanted to reach out to the main contributors to this article before deleting this statement myself. Are we in agreement that this is unsourced then? Please let me know.

Regards,

Devanampriya

In thoes days, there is not a stated called "Kashmir"? there were some small states. If you say vassal state, I will say no. Tang didn't control Kashmir all the times, and when she did, parts of Kashmir was controlled by 安西都护府,not a state. Some states there were once being Tang's allies, but they could turn to enemies. I think the author is confused with allies and vassal states.

Chinese use the term 西域, which is not the same as Kashmir. If you say 西域 was controlled by Tang, it is OK.

And Assam is also a modern name, you mean north east India? In thoes days, it was very hard to get there from China(there is himalaya), so they were basically isolated.

the map is strange, it seems that "Kashmir" is not on the correct position, and in those days, there were no mongol tribes. And the north east part the map is a mess, Paekche and Balhae didn't exist at the same time and they are not showed on the correct positon. Even Japanese topic of Tang has a better map.

I'm beginning to think the inner yellow area is a distorted Han map. The map overall suffers from enough distortions as it is. While the borders directly ruled by the Empire changed and some leeway can be assumed, the southwestern border is clearly extremely off, resembling a Han map, and on closer inspection the overall impression of the borders is Han. We really need a better mapHeaven's knight 22:52, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article's quality

This article is way too short and simplistic to be about Tang Dynasty. Even Encarta has about five pages solely devoted to it. I believe Wikipedia is one of the worst references when it comes to Chinese dynasties or Chinese history in general, because the contents are often short and has POV problems. Other prominent enyclopedias such as Encyclopædia Britannica has way more informations to say about it. --67.2.148.214 19:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree Heaven's knight 22:43, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image:Tang dynasty.PNG

The above image must be deleted or edited because its horribly incorrect. Paekche was never located above Goguryeo and Balhae didn't even exist at the time. Plus, it is way too POV. Only the yellow part should be colored in because I have never heard of a Chinese empire that controlled the middle east. Is this a joke or something to Korea? Its offending to see how Korean captions are messed up. Good friend100 00:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the map of the Tang Dynasty, I reverted back to the original Tang_dynasty1.PNG picture. Gaogouli sent a tribute to Tang in 619 before the invasion of allied Tang-XinLuo (Silla) forces. United XinLuo after the demise of Goguryo effectively became a Tang vassal in 668. This should be addressed in the picture.

Tang also subdued the Western Turks for a while. The Map of Tang should address the greatest extent of Tang influence.

-The preceding unsigned comment was added by Keizhen 07:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC).

I have a different opinion from yours.

specification user reveal provoke criticism. your first manners towards a other keep. Tang dynasty is not so big. Goguryeo not Tang vassal, also Tang dominate the Manchuria only 668~670s till government. and Tang was not able to altogether conquer the korea peninsula.

once more consider.

korea history(Talk) 07:24, 2 February 2007(UTC)

First of all, please read the map more clearly. The dark yellow area corresponds to the area of Imperial Tang's vassals. Unified Silla was a Tang vassal. Secondly, Gaogouli (Koguryo) did send tribute to Tang in 619 as I said earlier (source: China, Korea & Japan to 1875) just before the Tang-Xinluo (silla) invasion of Gaogouli. A unified Xinluo became a Tang vassal in 668.

[edit] empire, imperialism

whenever you confront an imperialist, or imperialist sympathiser with imperialism, the imperialist will often say that "all countries with power will abuse it. if its not the u.s., it will be rome, or uk". however, i am curious about the chinese tang dynasty. i have heard that tang china didnt try to invade, attack or exploit other countries when it had the ability to. during the tang dynasty and throughout most of chinese history, there is no doubt that china had the ability to invade japan but chose not to. i would like to see a military or imperialist section added into the main article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.159.35.185 (talk) 14:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Song/Liao Contradiction?

First sentence is:

The Tang Dynasty [was] followed by the Song Dynasty and the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms Period in China.

Doesn't that contradict the box on the right-hand side? That says Tang was followed by Liao and 5D/10K, with Song coming later, if I'm reading it correctly. --193.99.145.162 00:29, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Sub-Section Added

I just added the section on Chinese maritime influence abroad during the Tang era.

--PericlesofAthens 17:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

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