Talk:The Communist Manifesto
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[edit] Karl Marx was nothing more than a depressed man. That's why he wrote the Manifest
I added the POV-Section Template to the "Effect on Modern Countries" section. My reasoning for this was that it seemed like an attack on the US Government. Plus, that outside-link is horribly unprofessional, with the multiple exclamation points in a row, and the capitalized words. The sentence "Communism, by any other name is still communism, and is VERY VERY destructive to the individual and to the society!!" illustrates my point nicely. I can't think of any way to fix this, but if you can, go ahead and do so. Cheapy 02:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Why does manifest point to a triple redirect, and doesn't talk about other meanings, like manifest freight trains? --Cctoide 10:20, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- As of December 2005, it's different but not better.
Text of the Manifesto taken from http://csf.colorado.edu/psn/marx/Archive/1848-CM/cm.html
This needs to be Wikified more. -John Lynch
If the book calls itself communist why do Europeans call its philosophy socialist? Also if the book is called "The Communist Manifesto because it explains the Communist party's philosophy, than the party must be older than the book. Is that true or was the party founded based on the book?
Marx and Engels were asked to write the Manifesto by the Communist groups. So, yes the political entity preceedes the Manifesto. The "Communist Party" as such, however, did not exist. -John Lynch
I took out the line
- an economic philosophy which is based on the individual unit of a commune, or community
which I consider a vague and perhaps misleading definition of communism, and replaced it with something more specific (see the text) SR
This page isn't particularly NPOV, is it? The claim that Lenin and Stalin "misused" the term "Communism" is a Trotskyist or Menshevik assertion against Leninism or Bolshevism. (That most remaining Communists in the West today are anti-Soviet doesn't change the fact that it is a politically rife assertion historically.) --FOo
- Communism is a hypothetical classless society. As such, Bolsheviks and all so-called "vanguard parties" do not represent communism as described by Marx. The same can be said for any "communist" group (including Trotskyists) that advocates anything less than the complete dismantlement of the state.--205.206.139.41 14:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Better to rewrite than to whine, I have discovered. I'm not a Communist or socialist of any ilk myself, but I have tried to give a sympathetic reading of Marx and the early Communists as historical figures -- while also mentioning the tension between Marxism and the Soviet system as well as the critics of Communism.
The interstitial quotes from the Manifesto are intended to convey its style as a piece of writing, as well as its political content. (It is to exemplify its style that I chose these three, rather than (for instance) its enumeration of the Communist program.) Of course, they include the famous opening and closing, in a little more context than the previous revision of this page.
I would like to ask that those who edit this page keep NPOV strongly in mind. There are few topics in recent world history more disparate in people's feelings than Communism: there are many who see it as virtuous and noble, and many who see it as evil; many who romanticize pre-Soviet Marxism, and many who condemn the whole affair as a road to hell paved (at least at first) with good intentions. I for one am compelled by my education to admire the spirit of Revolution, though compelled by my learning to agree with the critics I mention in the article. --FOo
I think your middle quotation particularly important for understanding how deterministic the authors believed history to be (i.e., "communism" would be unavoidable at a certain point in the development of "capitalism" and would happen automatically by the conditions of life of the workers brought about by the great "capitalist" monopolies.) These conditions were never reached in any "capitalist" country and other means were found of handling monopolies (e.g., unions, anti-trust laws). RTC 02:48 Oct 30, 2002 (UTC)
The way this article is worded indicates that the author accepts that Marx intended a distinction between "socialism" and "communism." A textual analysis of Marx's and Engels' works shows that, at least as far as they were concerned, the terms were interchangeable. It was Lenin, in his 1917 book The State and Revolution, that specifically distinguished between socialism as the transitionary phase and communism the terminal phase of the revolution. So with that in mind, if no one objects, I'd like to edit the article to read as follows:
The program described in the Manifesto -- that is to say, the policies the Communists of its day sought to implement -- is termed socialism or communism. These policies included, among others, the abolition of land ownership and inheritance, the progressive income tax, and the nationalization of means of production and transportation. These policies, which would be implemented by a revolutionary government (the dictatorship of the proletariat), would (the authors believed) be a precursor to the stateless and classless society envisioned by the socialists. The term "Communism" is also used to refer to the beliefs and practices of the Communist Party, including that of the Soviet era which differed substantially from Marx and Engels' conception.
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It is this concept of the transition from capitalism to communism which many critics of the Manifesto, particularly during and after the Soviet era, have alighted upon....
[...]In other words, the dictatorship of the proletariat fades into communism when the representative democracy of the revolution fades into the direct democracy of communism.
This will more accurately reflect the wording of the Manifesto as well as Marx's and Engels' other works. I'm also adding a link to the text of the Manifesto at the Marxists Internet Archive (available under the FDL).--Eric 03:12, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)
[edit] February 21st or 26th?
I have seen some sources claiming that the Manifesto was published February 26th and not 21st. Is there a reliable printed source for the exact date? I thought Marx and Engels were on the continent in February and March of that year. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 11:23, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
[edit] socialist
well actually communism is all about socialism it realy is just the idea that if you become socialist enough classes will disaper
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- it is the human thing to do.
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- Socialism is a economic system. Communism is a government system.
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- Are you using these terms as they were defined by Marx, or just how you heard them used on talk radio?
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[edit] how relevant is the communmist manifesto today?
can we still say that the motor of history is the class struggle? if the classes polarisation of bourgeois and proletariat is not similar to our present society, the exploitation of the many by the few is nonetheless still present. another point is that capitalism was see nby marx as a necessary stade for the communist revolution. if this revolution is hard to imagine nowadays, what is the next step?
- This isn't a forum for the discussion of communism or the manifesto, it's solely for discussion of the article. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 10:56, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I just would like to point out that Marx would reject modern ideas of socialism, labor unions, and so on. He feels that these conventions are not what he wants, and they delay the "revulution" of capitalism to communism. This can be found in his critique of these societies in the third section of his communist manifesto. This makes Marx both an optimist and a pessimist. This is only a suggetion... 66.168.21.163 22:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Changes
I've drafted a few changes for this page here: The_Communist_Manifesto/draft.
I wanted to address a few problems in the current page. Mainly the excessive quoting (about 1/3 of the text is lifted directly from the tract, when it could be abridged), the point/counter-point regarding the withering away of the state (if we include one argument against Communism and its refutation, wouldn't we have to include them all?), and the final section about the effect on modern countries (these nations may have adopted policies supported in The Communist Manifesto, but I doubt that they adopted these policies *because* of the Communist Manifesto.)
I've written a part about its style, and a seperate section on its publication, translations, and direct influence. The new version looks shorter, but it's mostly because I removed the quotes I felt were superflous. What does everyone think? -Small Profit 10:35, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
[edit] "Public education"
I removed the reference to Public Education in Effect on Modern Countries because it is untrue. Marx did not advocate the abolition of child labour, only child labour "in its present form", he wanted children to have their educations combined with "industrial production", a thinly disguised advocacy of child labour.
The clause also advocates the education of all children in public schools, leaving no room for a private education system.
- Can there be a distinction between public and private schools if private property is abolished? --205.206.139.41 01:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
- Quote:"Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production"
As of NOW the child labor in the form practised in early 1900 is ABOLISHED(We still have child labor in other forms such as Farm labor for childre of farmers is ussually allowed, also a lot of teenagers have part-time jobs and/or volunteer for community service etc.) therefore this plank is followed in modern western societies, i am putting it back(also see trade school).--Hq3473 03:45, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Cite for "wither away"?
"Anarchists, liberals, and conservatives have all asked how an organization such as the revolutionary state could ever (as Marx put it elsewhere) "wither away"." -- So then, what is the exact cite for "wither away"? - 24 december 2005
[edit] Oopshee
I accidentally edited this entire page with something I was inserting onto my own wiki. I have reverted the page back to last edit. Sorry about that :D
[edit] this is "the communist manifesto," not "communism"
I've just finished a fairly major rewrite. My removal of a few passages may be controversial. However, I think they were clearly inappropriate in an article on the Communist Manifesto, the document itself, rather than the ideology Communism, which has its own article. Kalkin 06:34, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Trivia
The Cardinal, singer with punk band The Blood, identifies The Communist Manifesto as the Never Mind the Bollocks of the 19th Century, arguing that it challenged both belief and class systems with the same ferocious imagination.
... the above is what i the cardinal want to put in this article under the influence section ...if you read marx's communist manifesto ... it has all the bollocks and energy of the work never mind the bollocks ...
my point is when you identify this type of work in a ... doldrumatic ... vapid ... sterile .... style ... it does not represent the work ... and is in fact an injustice to the people who created the work and in no way an encyclopedic reference ...
thereto ... the comparison i make between never mind the bollocks and the communist manifesto is the kind of comparison that marx would have expected ... its about the people and the developing perception of the street ... and the worker against the establishment ...
remember wikipedia is for every one in the world not just those who have been to university ... the cardinal The Blood
--I'm not sure if a quote from a band whom, no offence to 'The Blood', is not at the least--iconic--is really trivia. It seems kind of like saying, "John Smith" from West Anytown, Carolina says that, 'The world is flat.'" Not a very important piece of info. This particular trivia section doesn't fit in an encyclopedia such as this(IMO). =Rust_In_Peace (Steve)
[edit] Jean Laffite?
This article claims that the original publication of the Manifesto was paid for by the pirate Jean Laffite. That is actually impossible as he disappeared "never to be heard from again" in the 1820's, decades before Marx' manifesto was first published. I am removing that statement from the article. here is text from Laffite's article.
"After being run out of New Orleans around 1817, Lafitte relocated to the island of Galveston, Texas establishing another "kingdom" he named "Campeche". In Galveston, Lafitte either purchased or set his claim to a lavishly furnished mansion used by French pirate Louis-Michel Aury, which he named "Maison Rouge". The building's upper level was converted into a fortress where cannon commanding Galveston harbor were placed. Around 1820, Lafitte reportedly married Madeline Regaud, possibly the widow or daughter of a French colonist who had died during an ill-fated expedition to Galveston. In 1821, the schooner USS Enterprise was sent to Galveston to remove Lafitte's presence from the Gulf after one of the pirate's captains attacked an American merchant ship. Lafitte agreed to leave the island without a fight and, in 1821 or 1822, departed on his flagship, the Pride, burning his fortress and settlements and reportedly taking immense amounts of treasure with him. All that remains of Maison Rouge is the foundation, located at 1417 Avenue A near the Galveston wharf.
After his departure from Galveston, Lafitte was never heard from again. Rumors have long circulated that Lafitte died in a hurricane in the Gulf or in the Yucatan around 1826. A controversial manuscript, known as the Journal of Jean Laffite, relates how, after his announced death in the 1820s, he lived in several states in the United States, and raised a family until his death in St. Louis in the 1840s. Reportedly at his request, the publication of the journal was delayed for 107 years and surfaced in the 1950s in the hands of a man claiming to be the pirate's descendant" Blockader 18:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Sources for 'Influence on capitalist countries'?
I've added an 'unsourced' template to this section, as it cites none. Whilst the points made are interesting, several seem quite POV and the whole section has the appearance of original research. Can we get some sources for this stuff, otherwise it should be removed. SeanLegassick 12:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Right, User:Lordmetroid's latest edit doesn't seem to have improved this situation, and reintroduced a spelling mistake I fixed. I don't get the feeling that this section is being edited well, so I think it should be moved here until sourced.
- Some measures recommended by the Manifesto are currently widespread in developed capitalist countries. In particular, most Western capitalist nations adhere to the following Manifesto measures:
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- Property taxes have, in effect, abolished property in land. Since you can be deprived of your land and home for failure to pay property taxes.
- A progressive income tax system.
- Inheritance tax makes the government rather than the family entitled to the property.
- American law subjects people renouncing U.S. citizenship for what the government terms "tax avoidance purposes" to U.S. taxation for ten years after renunciation.
- Confiscation of property without due process by various government agencies. The imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the government in the United States(1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill).
- The Central banks. The Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice fractional reserve banking.
- Departements regulating traffic or communication, mandatory driver's licenses.
- Corporate regulations, subsidies and Zoning laws.
- Laws giving Trade unions special privileges in contracting and conflicts.
- A universal free public education system and the abolition of child labor (in the form practiced in Marx's time).
- Many western capitalist countries in the past also nationalised communications (telephones, radio), transportation (railroads) and energy (electricity, natural gas, oil); the last group of industries obviously omitted from Manifesto due to relative insignificance at the time. In some countries these industries have been recently privatised.
- The private banks of Australia were nearly nationalised in 1948. Heavy inheritance taxes in some states of Australia were a half-measure towards the call for inheritances to go the state.
Any takers to turn this into sourced encyclopaedic material? SeanLegassick 13:58, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- I will work on this when I have time. I know that a lot of conservatives cry wolf about Marxists planks being implemented in America, there are numerous published articles on the subject. For example see google results for communist manifesto implemented planks. Of course this section will have to be NPOVed to explain that only certain people hold this view.--Hq3473 05:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
- Great. This is definitely interesting material (no conservative am I), but given its contentious nature it definitely needs to be sourced. SeanLegassick 12:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Source for 'Legacy/Russia' section?
This section is also entirely unsourced, although at least it does seem to fairly represent the range of views on the matter. It could really do with sources and thus with the removal of weasel words. For now I've added the pertinent templates to the section in the article. SeanLegassick 14:07, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Music
The music section doesn't seem relevant to the article's topic in that the article is about the document. The music section doesn't add anything of relevance to the information regarding the document itself but rather about Erwin Schulhoff. Lord Metroid 14:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. Although it's not essential information, it is interesting, and no less relevant than any number of 'References in popular culture' section in other articles. The section could also do with sources, but otherwise I see no problem with it. SeanLegassick 22:46, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- While it is interesting information, is it really necessary. If we are to include it in the article, it surely does not deserve its own section. I think having an entire music section on the Communist Manifesto article is misleading.GreekXboxMaster
- It's not necessary. but does that mean it shouldn't be included? It's directly relevant, notable and informative, so I see no reason to exclude it. As to the section header, perhaps something like "References in popular culture" would be better? There are many paraphrases of "A spectre is haunting..." around in various works, and other references, so we could rename the section ready to be expanded with further items. SeanLegassick 21:41, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
