Talk:The Sleepwalkers
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The Sleepwalkers was proposed for deletion. This page is an archive of the discussion about the proposed deletion. This page is no longer live. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page rather than here so that this page is preserved as an historic record. The result of the debate was KEEP
Advert for a non-notable book (contrary to the claims made in the article). Googling "The Sleepwalkers" gets over 5000 hits, many of which are not this book. Include the qualifier "cosmology" and the number reduces to 787 hits. SWAdair | Talk 08:32, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Delete. That's a POV book review, not an article. —Rory ☺ 16:25, Oct 9, 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Retool. The book is notable. Googling "(sleepwalker OR sleepwalkers) Koestler" provides some 2400 hits, and they are meaty hits. --jpgordon {gab} 17:08, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. Or Merge into Arthur Koestler and redirect. I glanced at the VfD title, and I said to myself "If that's the Arthur Koestler book it's notable and I'll vote to keep." It is, and I do.
It's certainly no ad, given that the book is out of print! Notability is arguable, of course (if it's so great why isn't it still in print?)A check of the local public library network shows that eleven out of thirty libraries in the network have it: ARLINGTON, BROOKLINE, CAMBRIDGE, CONCORD, DOVER, FRAM STATE, LEXINGTON/, MEDFORD, MOUNT IDA, NEWTON, WALTHAM. And for what it's worth, ten have it available but one of them lists it as "out," so someone is actually reading it. Article needs work, of course. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 17:34, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC) - Comment. For some reason, this book is hard to find in online indexes, perhaps because of variations in its long title. The library listings above, for example, were split between "The Sleepwalkers," "The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe", and "The Sleepwalkers/A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe" (slash instead of colon!) It is in print, "The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universe," ISBN 0140192468. Amazon sales rank 44,179. I personally consider a rank better than 10,000 to be clearly notable and a rank worse than 200,000 to be clearly non-notable. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 18:05, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Comment. The Columbia World of Quotations includes a quotation from the book: "If conquerors be regarded as the engine-drivers of History, then the conquerors of thought are perhaps the pointsmen who, less conspicuous to the traveller’s eye, determine the direction of the journey." I can't say that quotation really grabs me... More Googling turns up another quotation from [http://www.philosophers.co.uk/quotations/author_search.php3?author=Arthur%20Koestler&num=1 The Philosophers' Magazine Online: "Nobody before the Pythagoreans had thought that mathematical relations held the secret of the universe. Twenty-five centuries later, Europe is still blessed and cursed with their heritage. To non-European civilizations, the idea that numbers are the key to both wisdom and power, seems never to have occurred." Ah. Here's some paydirt. "More than four centuries after Copernicus’ death, writer Arthur Koestler claimed in his 1959 book The Sleepwalkers that nobody read De Revolutionibus when it first circulated." This claim inspired the current book, "The Book Nobody Read," by Owen Gingerich. [[User:Dpbsmith|Dpbsmith (talk)]] 18:15, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Keep and cleanup. I'll have a go eventually if nobody else does, but need to find my copy in storage first. Enormously influential book, but like most of Arthur Koestler's stuff its detractors tried hard to minimise its impact, so you won't see it quoted by many contemporaries who just discuss and reject its ideas while carefully avoiding any reference to either the work or its author. Andrewa 18:29, 9 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Keep. It's a published book. Just because the article sucks doesn't mean it should be deleted. It just means it should be edited so it doesn't suck any more. COGDEN 21:09, Oct 14, 2004 (UTC)
End archived discussion -- Graham ☺ | Talk 01:42, 16 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Questia.com's online library has the book available to read at: http://www.questia.com/PM.qst?a=o&d=59255222 -- although you can only read it in full with a subscription to Questia.
