Talk:Tracey Ullman

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My secret plot to get enough material to make a Stiff records article has succeeded! "A label with punk attitude and eclectic tastes". Data below. Ortolan88

From the article:

In 1984, she had great success as a singer on the legendary punk label Stiff records, where she had six songs on the British Top 100 in less than two years, including her first hit "You Broke My Heart in 17 Places", and the international hit "They Don't Know".

This was not punk. Her songs were over-the-top evocations of 60s and 70s pop music with an 80s edge, "somewhere between Minnie Mouse and the Supremes" as England's Melody Maker put it, or "retro before retro was cool", according to a retrospective review. --Ortolan88

I'm not following the plot here. You say in your Summary line: "[meta comments moved to talk -- be bold Ortolan88 and edit-out the "punk" statement and include your own thoughts]".

I don't see anything wrong here, and certainly no cause for deletion. These aren't my opinions at all and I don't think they should be. What is there to be bold about?

It is news, if you will, that "Our Trace" recorded on Stiff, but having said that, it had to be made clear that she wasn't a punk artist as virtually every other Stiff star was.

Nonsense. Madness weren't punk (too ska), Ian Dury wasn't punk (too music hall), Elvis Costello wasn't either, though he was sometimes marketed as such. Stiff were, as their slogan at the time stated, The World's Most Flexible Record Label -- User:GWO

I never heard that slogan. All I heard were "We came. We saw. We left." and "If it ain't Stiff it ain't worth a f*ck." So, okay, Madness wan't punk. Elvis Costello was "a punk" even if his music wasn't officially '"punk". I have here before me two Stiff compilations, and great record albums ("Live Stiffs"

A record that contains a straight and sincere reading of "I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself" by punk icon Burt Bacharach :)

and "Hits Greatest Stiffs"), and who do I see but Wreckless Eric, Larry Wallis,

Pub rockers, to a man...

Pink Fairies, Tyla Gang, Motörhead (the Larry version), The Damned, Richard Hell. How could you ever get the idea that Stiff was a punk label? So Nick Lowe is a pop star, but he wrote a song about a dog devouring the corpse of a hasbeen movie queen and Ian Dury was "music hall", but he wrote "Sex and Drugs and Rock and Roll" and "Hit Me with your Rhythm Stick"

Play either of those records to someone who didn't know Dury, and I bet you dollars to donuts the thought "Punk Rock" wouldn't cross their minds.

Play Ian Dury for someone who'd never heard him and they'd say "I never heard anything remotely like this in my whole life. Ortolan88

Also, the late, lamented Kirsty McColl was on Stiff, and she wasn't a punk either. Stiff had some punks (Damned, Hell) but they weren't close to a majority, let alone "almost all" -- User:GWO and "Our Trace" was a reincarnation of Leslie Gore crossed with John Entwistle, but their record label was awash with punks and it had a punk attitude. I suppose you'd call Lew Lewis a blues singer, but I'd call him a Stiff star. If I wrote about Madness, I'd probably feel obliged to make the same point I did about Tracey, a non-punk on a punk label. Best regards, music fans, Ortolan88

I thought I should characterize the music accurately, which I did, after listening to "They Don't Know". Not punk, but retro with attitude. That is a description, not an opinion.

Both the Melody Maker and the "retro" quote came from the semi-official "Go Home" site, but it would have been too complicated and wordy to give it a clear and correct credit so I made it anonymous. But it wasn't me.

I will listen to what you have to say before restoring this innocuous and informative material to the article. If the wording is confusing, please let me know, but gee, my heart is pure here. Ortolan88

The wording is confusing - it appeared to be an inserted comment which was trying to refute the above statement and not simply the opposing ideas of another group. Please do put the removed sentences back in. However, please do modify "This wasn't punk." to something like; "Others contend that her work can not in fact be considered to be punk, because....". Hope this helps. --maveric149

Okay, cool. rewrote it. tried to make short sentence do too much work. I think I'll delete this talk unless you think it has historical value.

Ortolan88, i changed the article because i felt that DOB should just be (December 30, 1959 -) and not include where someone was born in that part of the article. i have done this with others and no one has objected before. may i ask what your objection is? --Anon

I think it was less of an objection and more of a matter of style -- I voted for your way of doing things Anon by changing the article and I hope that Ortolan88 agrees with the change (the current format is the "standardish" way of doing things around here). --maveric149

Thank you Maveric - it is just my feeling that full birth (and death) dates (e.g. July 7, 1919 - May 20, 1996) for Jon Pertwee) is the best style for articles on people. -- Paul Melville Austin (Anon)

Change that stuff around as you like. I really don't think there's enough material available on wiki style. It's all folklore tucked away in user pages and summary lines: I just learned that movie titles are italicized, but if it is documented elsewhere than in italicized movie titles, I haven't found it. Ortolan88

Is there a guideline page on how to give birth & death dates & places? If there isn't maybe some of the discussion here could be cooked up to start one. (and placenames too... "London, England" just looks wrong) -- user:Tarquin

Tracey's first UK hit was "Breakaway" (which also became a minor hit in the US). "You Broke My Heart In 17 Places" is actually the title track to her first album and was not issued as a single. -- RMc

[edit] Guideline for Dates

See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers) for the guideline on birthdates.

For a person still living at the time the article was written, the example given is: Serena Williams (born September 26, 1981).

Please do not change the date format in this article unless you have a really good reason that trumps this clear guideline. --Vbd 14:43, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citations/Footnotes Missing

This article is in serious need of citations or footnotes. It is entirely unsourced. I had also previously tagged this with a "Fan Site" warning because of its informal, un-encyclopedic tone and content. I do not have the time right now to start trying to find sources for the article. I am hoping that whoever has contributed to its development in the past will go back and add appropriate citations.--Vbd 16:35, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

One area that this article has gotten at least some of it's information is from Ullman's autobiographical stage show, "Live and Exposed". Do you know how to add a footnote, or at least somehow show how to source the content? That would at least take care of the early years section. I'll look into cleaning some of the page up as it has the necessary information, albeit it, messy, and add adequate sourcing. If you could help with finding out how to source a stage show that is on DVD, and how to basically source it in the article, it would be most helpful. Thanks!

Update: I have ten sources to add. Will be up soon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.82.82.248 (talk) 05:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC).