Talk:Black metal

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Archives
February 2002 - May 2006

Contents 1 Wikiproject improvments 2 Pagan metal 3 Corpse painting/clothing 4 Merging the intro with History 5 Archiving 6 War Metal 7 Some weird stuff 8 The second wave 9 Sorry for all the blood 10 Third Wave? 11 Performance 12 First Wave 13 Tonality 14 Black Ambient 15 Several Edits/Merged Info 16 Issues with this article

[edit] Wikiproject improvments

Alrighty, while I intend to do some of these, I think it would do us good to get a list going of what We think needs to be done to get Black Metal into 1.0 standards (it is as of today a B-)

1. Lead - Seems mostly ok, a bit ambigious already got a better wording for the parts I find so.

The lead is filled with fluff. There's no reason to include a (false) spiel about how black metal is supposedly anti-idealist, especially given that black metal is rooted in Romanticism, which is arguably a form of idealism itself. Also, perhaps someone should cite a source for the idea that black metal bands consider racism "a form of philanthropy" (??). No one is ever going to agree about what black metal is and is not, so perhaps it's just best to avoid any generalist statement about ideology whatsoever.Egendomligt 06:10, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

2. Genrebox - Pages need to be made for US Black Metal and Eastern Europe Black Metal, other than that seems ok. We might want to add something about Scandavian Black Metal as a regional scene? Or rather might move Viking to Regional, and retitle it Scandavian, though this leaves the beginings of NSBM out and implies that their bands were part of the same scene.

3. Characteristics - My main problem with Characteristics is the listing of "Lyrics that take the form of pessimistic, Satanic, Pagan, or occult themes which blaspheme Christianity. Bands such as Slayer, Venom, Deicide, and Immolation overlap lyrically with black metal somewhat but are musically defined as death metal (Deicide, Immolation) or thrash metal (Slayer, Venom), however, Venom coined the term "Black Metal" and laid the foundations for later Black Metal alongsides Bathory and Celtic Frost." As there are Christian black metal bands by actual music styles Christian Black

I think it's good the way it is, as it says "Black metal can display" (emph. mine) before the listing itself. That, and "Unblack" has no real importance/influence in Black Metal. It could perhaps be changed to say that there's also something as Christian Black Metal, and then a link to that page... 81.240.173.147 21:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure where you think it is saying can in any form, the direct quote from the page is is that of "Lyrics that take the form of pessimistic, Satanic, Pagan, or occult themes which blaspheme Christianity. And its not just christian black metal that exsists, Wolves in the Throne Room have no lyrical base in pessesism, but are black metal. There mere fact that you can have these lyrics without it being black metal, makes me question the revelance of this, as you can say the same thing about other forms of extreme metal.Atechi 16:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

As "black metal" refers to the occult in the first place, the lyrical content is as important as the musical content in defining something as "black metal." Thus, there is no such thing as "Christian black metal," as while they may musically style themselves as such, their lyrics are far and away from the occult and from any sort of "black"ness. --Skullfission 08:14, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

4. History - What is in our history section after the third paragraph goes on a tangent about Norweigan NSBM (one that is repeated on about four pages), Additioanlly, the entire section seems to lack sources (or they are at least not cited), and to me needs to be rewritten.

I corrected some grammar here, but you're right, this needs major re-writing, especially since at the end it goes off on a tangent about the future of the genre! Maybe this should be moved; it needs some serious thought. Many fans have very strong feelings about what can be/can't be considered BM, and talking about bands that bring in elements of industrial etc. could cause some controversy. 41214 21:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

5. Artists - Seems good to me.

There are many more important bands that should be mentioned, such as: ildjarn, havohej, mütiilation, vlad tepes, vatain, nargaroth, behexen, 1349, etc.

I've been involved with the black metal scene for well over a decade, and I have heard of exactly ONE of those bands (1349). --Skjald 22:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Let me guess, you're Norwegian, right? If not, you obviously haven't been reading your zines lately. But no, none of the above mentioned bands need a mention as they haven't had any big influence. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.165.128.200 (talk) 23:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC).

Be weary, naming too many bands can lead to edit wars. People will delete or add band names just because they feel like it. I saw this happen on several pages. Emmaneul 03:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I am aware of that. However, some bands, f.e. Moonblood, are by far more essental than, some of the mentioned bands, like Blut Aus Nord, Arkhon Infaustus, Anorexia Nervosa, Antaeus or Ofermod.

I worry that some of these bands shouldn't be mentioned at all; if a band bring in industrial elements, can they still be considered BM? There is a big rift in the BM bands that are emerging now- some are rigidly sticking to classic styles and some are being much more experimental. Fans have strong opinions on this. 41214 21:11, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

6. Samples - We need to get some.

7. Misc - Can we take the NSBM section out? as a subgenre with its own page?--Atechi 16:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, i agree there should be some samples IMO. Darksteel 09:48, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Looking at it more closely, I think we can delete the history and subforms, rename First/Second wave Black Metal to History, and it would clean it up really well, imo. --Atechi 16:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pagan metal

While we are discussing the possible deletion of some minor subgenres, there is one that seems to me to be sadly ignored, pagan metal. There are a number of relatively well known bands such as Primordial and Moonsorrow that fit into this category, but no section! Pagan metal presently redirects to Black Metal. There are about 20 articles that link to pagan metal ([1]), so it must to have some significance, and should deserve a section at the least.

Back in December there was an AfD for pagan metal, the result of which was no concensus (3 keep, 2 delete, [2]). Strangely enough, I cannot find the article or section that was up for deletion. Would someone like to create this section? Or at least tell me why it shouldn't be (re?)created, if that's the case. IronChris | (talk) 23:54, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[3] - dunno if it fits well in this article. It also has close ties to viking metal and folk metal. Spearhead 08:48, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot of useless genres here. Pagan Metal is not a genre, is a stylistic description. Oriental Metal is similarly dumb, and doesn't exist. No one outside of Wikipedia references 'Oriental Metal'. Also, Neoclassical Metal or Symphonic Metal are, like Pagan Metal, stylistic descriptions, not actual genres. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.122.166.35 (talk • contribs) .

Yo, I got redirected here when I clicked on a link for 'troll metal'. I can't see why Troll Metal is more similar to Black Metal than it is Folk Metal or even Heavy Metal - Finntroll, Korpiklaani, TrollfesT - they don't sound very black metal to me.

i've heard people referencing oriental metal. Like Loudness.Miles 02:47, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

i havent heard of oreintal metal, but neoclassical i hear mentioned quite often--Frenrir1 22:01, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I redirected Pagan Metal to point to Folk Metal, as it isn't strictly a type of Black Metal. --Atechi 18:33, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. The only one related to it would be Blackened Pagan.

BTW, The Origins of Black Metal Publication > Articles > The Origins of Black Metal is a "dead" link.

Someone should explain why they all wear black and white face paint...

[edit] Corpse painting/clothing

There should be a short section on face painting (from kiss to mayhem and then it many bands gave it up etc.) and on clothing (black clothes, bullets, pikes etc.)

That's fine as long as it's encyclopedic and verifiable. Whatever was put up yesterday on this subject was not. Scskowron 14:18, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merging the intro with History

It is misleading to have the section labeled History start off with the Norweigian DRA.MA. I would suggest to either start off the history section with Venom, Bathory, ect or to rename the History to Early Norweigan Scene or something similar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.15.181.90 (talk • contribs) .

I agree that a lot of emphasis is made on the Norwegian history, and that's not all there is to it. This seems like a decent proposal to me, there's a lot about history in the intro. IronChris | (talk) 03:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree and will try and rewrite the article in the next few weeks, there is also alot of repetition most notably "Venom (the original line up being Cronos, Mantas & Abbadon)." which occurs twice. Also the start of the "History" section and the "First Wave" scetion both add exactly the same info about Venom. I also think it would be better to leave out the large section about the Euronymous/Varg episode as I'm pretty sure there will be info about it on either the Mayhem, Burzum, Euronymous or Varg (or all four) pages already.

Another thing of note is that there was no recording studio in Euronymous' basement, I think the writer is reffering to the 'Griegenhallen' (Greig Memorial Hall)? which is a general purpose studio, not limited to BM. Another thing would be the 'Inner Circle' reference as Varg and many others have stated that there was no large organization as many of them didn't stay in the same city (Euro - Oslo, Varg - Bergen, Emperor - Notodden), it could be noted however that the term is used. I also think the NSBM section could be shortened to one sentence as there is already an article about it and the 'War metal' section could be added as a separate page or a page could be made for Blasphemy as "It is generally accepted[weasel words] that Blasphemy were the first "War Metal" band".

I'd like to know what others think of these ideas first?--XdiabolicalX 19:37, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Downplaying the importance of the early Norwegian scene seems foolish, as this was the scene that basically defined the second wave of black metal and its varieties. The history of early black metal is a primarily Norwegian one, unless anyone wants to point out similarly influential groups from other countries around the same time.--Egendomligt 08:14, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where else to post this. I remember a friend telling me of a metal artist, who if I recall correctly was Burzum, which would seem right, as I remember him telling me of him being in prison (Though he said he synthesizes music from inside the prison now, and let me hear a clip of it. Much less agressive now, as would be obvious.) I just remembered a quote that I thought would be interesting to add. My friend says that somebody tried to kill Burzum, and defending himself, he killed the person. My friend said that in an interview, he said, completely casually and nonchalantly, something along the lines of, "He tried to kill me, and he failed miserably, so I killed him." Does anybody have any information on this, or know if there was a quote like this at all? From reading the history, I could see where some of it may have been misinterpreted or something somewhere, by my friend, but I'd like to know for sure and have it clarified. 4.234.30.224 09:56, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

No one knows the truth for sure except Mr Vikernes and we can't take his word for it. Diabolical 16:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving

This talk page is getting excessively long (133 kilobytes, the recommended maximum being 32). Would someone like to archive some of the old discussions? It's getting kind of a pain to read and edit, not to mention that some particularly old browsers (if they still exist) might have difficulties showing or editing such long pages. IronChris | (talk) 03:56, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok I archived it. It was getting much too long. IronChris | (talk) 17:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] War Metal

What the hell is War Metal? And why is it included on the Black Metal page? If it would be included any black metal subgenre it would be NSBM or Viking Metal. War metal it's just a stupid tag that some stupid fuck invented in order to earn some status. It's just stupid. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Viriatus (talk • contribs) .

Woah I can't believe "war metal" is still there... There were lots of discussions about it (see archive 1), but nothing was ever done. IronChris | (talk) 21:19, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

So are we going to delete "war metal" or make a minor movement group as suggested in the archives? I personally lean towards deletion of War Metal, it strikes me a poseur subgenre. Google gives Black War Metal 303, just plain War Metal is 128.000 but most do not seem relevant to the music scene. Atechi 16:25, June 23 2006

At the very least, it would seem from it would be better to place this with Thrash or Death metal, most of the bands listed as influance are death/thrash and in the section description it is listed as a Death/Thrash fusion. Atechi

Deleted War Metal due to lack of objectives.

[edit] Some weird stuff

"Black metal is a sub-genre of extreme metal" Extreme metal? I never heard of this as being a real genre. BM is a kind of extreme metal but I don't think extreme metal by itself is a genre. And the Extreme metal page is a low quality page. Refering to extreme metal is not a good idea imo.

"It garnered criticism from mainstream media because black metal supposedly embraces anti-Christianity, misanthropy, nihilism and sometimes racism and nationalism though not all musicians considered black metal necessarily support these ideologies, especially not the latter two (they are almost exclusive to the sub-genre of National Socialist black metal), perhaps because standard black metal ideology is influenced by anti-idealist philosophers who often regarded racism as a form of idealism or philanthropy." This is a very long sentence. I think this could be more readable.

"A distinct "rasped" vocal style..." & "Screeching vocals" I think one could be deleted

"Standard tuned guitars (In contrast to death metal which is typically dropped D and down-tuned.)" In Death it's not common to play in dropped D. Downtuning is common, 'dropped D' isn't. Emmaneul 03:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The second wave

Regarding Litany's edit: I agree that the article should cover the origins of the second wave wore widely, but except for Bathory (which is already covered in the article), the Swedish black metal scene was very small in the late-80's / early-90's and the bigger Swedish bands only started after black metal was already "popular". Claiming bands such as Lord Belial, Dark Funeral and Mörk Gryning as a major influence or originator is just a factual inaccuracy and blatant fanboyism, as these formed in 1993/1994. If you want to make the section to cover some important non-Norwegian bands too, please do so, but don't only add your favourite bands from your own country and make it look like Sweden was a key scene together with Norway. Most sources agree the second wave originated from Norway. Prolog 18:53, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Haha fanboyism? First of all they are not my favorite bands and second of all most bands. Both Marduk and Abruptum (and also Dissection if you want) came before bands like Dimmu Borgir, Emperor and Gorgoroth. Dark Funeral, Lord Belial and Mörk Gryning came during the same time between 1992-1993. I'm not trying to put down the fact that Norway was a big influence during theese years, but they are not the single one (just like with Melodic Death Metal from Sweden). Sweden was also a prominent inspiration in the second wave of black metal. Regarding Bathory, that band was one of the big influences during the first wave. I think we could cover more band's that wore important during theese years than just Norwegian and Swedish, like Samael for Switzerland and maybe even Sarcófago from Brazil.

The line between the genres of black-, death-, thrash/speed-metal were (and still is as fare as I consider) rather blurry during this time (late 80's/early 90's). Best regards - Litany 19:06, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree the section is too Norway-centric and should cover influential bands from other countries, like the ones you mentioned along with Master's Hammer, Blasphemy, Beherit etc. This shouldn't be hard to do as the section is still pretty short. I still think the article should keep the usual consensus of Norway as the most notable scene, as otherwise it might fall under original research and go against the few semi-reliable sources that there are about this subject. Prolog 21:13, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

I deleted Dark Funeral and Abruptum as influences from Swedish scene as Abruptum isn't black metal at all and Dark Funeral wasn't found until 1993. Dissection hasn't really ever stated themselves as black metal but "metal of death", but I suppose it can stay there. I also added Finnish scene as influence, namely Beherit and Impaled Nazarene. Ofcourse there could be a long list of the smaller bands which have later become famous and somewhat influental from these two countries (Sweden: The Black, Azhubham Haani etc., Finland: Archgoat, Unholy etc.), but it's getting rather trivial. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 130.234.5.136 (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

I wanted to emphasize the significnce of Dead's suicide to second wave of black metal as after the attention black metal got through it, death metal bands started to be more interested in BM. These bands include Thou Shalt Suffer (pre-Emperor), Black Death (pre-Darkthrone), Amputation (pre-Immortal) and partly Old Funeral (Varg Vikernes used to play in the band before Burzum). Ofcourse some of the bands changed their name already before the suicide, but their style suddenly turned into more BM after it.

Also I wanted to ask if anybody here considers the Black War (the so-called "BM war" between Norway & Finland in the c. 92-93) worth of a mention? I could write about the incident. After all it had a effect on Finnish black metal scene (espescially Impaled Nazarene & Beherit).

I'd like to know why the Norwegians hated Beherit so much to spawn a band called Fuck Beherit. I've never saw anything about them othe rthan the Metal-Archives page. XdiabolicalX 00:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I added the Dark War into the history section. You can check pretty much the same shit from Finnish 'zine Isten #8 (I can also send scans). And although the "conflict" can sound hilariously funny now, it was far more serious back then when people were being killed.

There also could be some mention about the murder commited by Bard in the history section and in general the article should handle also Finnish and Greek scenes as they were the two big scenes with Norwegian one.

[edit] Sorry for all the blood

Just a quick note; something I noticed, but didn't Dead's suicide note read "Sorry for all the blood" and not "Excuse all the blood"? Or is this just due to different translation (as I'm not sure if it was written in English or not).

It was written in Swedish or Norwegian, not that it matters because there was more on it than just those words as the media would have you believe. XdiabolicalX 17:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that the exact text matters, the gist of it is that he apologized for all the blood. Spartacusprime 18:41, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third Wave?

I'm not sure there really is a third wave, but there are definately modern BM bands which are not second wave. Compare bands like Negura Bunget, Nokturnal Mortem or Arcturus with Transylvanian Hunger... Huge difference. I think something needs to be said about modern/"third wave" BM bands.

I agree, there's been lots of talk about French band recently, I'd like to see some more development on the paragraph about these "third wave" bands and the similiarities and differences. 41214 12:18, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm not hugely familiar with modern black metal, but to me it seems like releases from bands starting in the late 90's and early 2000's differ greatly from early to mid 90's black metal. Bands such as Wykked Wytch (sp?) and others are being lumped into the black metal category, and recent releases from groups such as Enslaved, Satyricon and Dimmu Borgir suggest a much different sound than what they were 10 years ago. I personally feel, from my own observation, that black metal groups that are embracing more commercial or accessible sounds, or prog-oriented sounds (such as in Enslaved) or avant garde/ambient sounds (such as Blut Aus Nord) should be considered part of a third wave.

[edit] Performance

Unless anyone objects, I am going to add a brief section about performance, saying how most black metal bands do not play live. It's rather critical to black metal, which I don't think you'd get from reading the article. -- scskowron 09:41 15 December 2006(UTC)

I think you could include this in the Aesthetics section. Although you could rewrite the part about drum machines and ambient samples as not fit for live show as it has been done by for example Mysticum. Also you could add something about the stage show (many bands using flesh and blood to throw to the audience). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 62.165.128.200 (talk) 16:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

Most bands that don't play live only do so because there is only one member writing the music so it usually ends up unfit for live performance. Most bands do play live. XdiabolicalX 21:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed the ridiculous claim that a "SIZABLE portion of black metal bands employ drum machines," changing it to the neutral "some." Skjald 10:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Most black metal bands don't play live? Nonsense. Impaled Nazarene, Dimmu Borgir, Emperor, Immortal, Marduk, Dark Funeral, Satyricon, 1349, Enslaved, Destroyer 666, Gorgoroth, Goatwhore, Dodheimsgard, Dissection, Borknagar, Carpathian Forest, Mutiilation, Mayhem, and Hell-Born all are or were live acts, and most of these bands actively tour or did at some point. Also, that thing about bands throwing flesh and blood at concert-goers isn't very common as far as I know. I know Mayhem did it and, though not black metal, Deicide used to do it.12.72.247.29 01:22, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but one must concede that the live experience is not central to black metal. Black metal is an recording-oriented genre, not a performance-oriented or media-oriented one. Scskowron 02:07, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] First Wave

I added a note about Death SS to the first wave section. There is also some inconsistency between the opening paragraph and the first wave section. The opening paragraph states that Venom only had an influence because they influenced Celtic Frost. The First Wave section makes it seem like Venom had a huge influence and doesn't even mention hellhammer/celtic frost (I just added one line that needs to be expanded). Olliegrind 18:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I cleaned up this whole section (First Wave), but it could use a total rewrite by someone intricately familiar with the history of black metal. I just cleaned up the language a bit. Skjald 13:10, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tonality

I've analysed some black metal recently and I think there should be a section on the tonality and harmony used in black metal, i.e. uses the Diminished scale, often rather than using diminished and minor chords it uses ambiguous parallel minor thirds to create a very dark and grim atmosphere. A progression typical of the styl would go something like this:

I-II-I-IV-III

Although this sort of things is a common feature, it is not a universal one.

If you want to add it, go ahead, just make sure you provide specifics and can back it up with a song. Maybe "Funeral Fog" would be a good one? Scskowron 06:03, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black Ambient

I found an article on Black ambient and I thought I'd mention it in case you guys wanted to add it to the list or something. I wrote an article for Payasage d'Hiver and I might do one for Darkspace as well. I am not an expert on the Ambient side of Black Metal but if anybody wants to help me then by all means. Lord of nothing 16:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Several Edits/Merged Info

I hope nobody here thinks I'm a jackass for doing this, but I put the page through dozens of edits (many of which could have been done at one time had I thought of them). HOWEVER, it should be realized that, despite the long list of edits on the history page, no information was lost or vandalized in any way.

I simplified the "History" section (renamed it) and split up all the information for an easier read. All the info from before is still there (and more, actually, like the Faust incident), but I made it an overall easier read for anyone who wants to learn about black metal's history for the first time. Before, it was mashed together and who was who became impossible to tell for anyone who doesn't know their stuff already.

I also removed redundant information. A lot of stuff, like definitions on what corpse paint was, was repeated upwards three times. I defined it once, using much of what was already here, and put it where it belonged. Some stuff in the opening section was merged as well (why repeat things and draw them out?). I also fixed some grammar issues, such as "LaVey-satanism", which is actually written as "LeVayen Satanism" (I'm sure the originaly scribe meant well).

A picture of the stave church was also added for visual effect, as well as a picture depicting Dead and Euronymous to help demonstrate corpse paint. A link to an interview with Mayhem shortly after Dead's suicide has been added as well in one of the paragraphs under "Historical Events in Black Metal". It was also somehow lost that the usage of Dead's pictures on "Dawn of the Black Hearts" was never done by the band itself, at least not officially, and the photographs were in fact stolen to make this cover. Aarseth also didn't actually eat the brains, and the scan of the interview linked there shows this. It should also be noted that, even though one of my source links leads to a Yahoo! Music page, all biographical info on that page is actually from the All Music Guide (AMG, which probably hightens the credibility in some people's eyes).

I'm a huge music and metal fan in general (not just black metal), and I feel black metal is still not getting its story told cohesively or with credit. That's why I all did all this and hopefully, upon inspection, you will all agree the page is much better now. Thanks. -- 15 February 2007 68.5.56.205

The work is good. At first I was about to flip out when I saw all those edits but they were all well-done and verifiable. They make a good addition to the page. Scskowron 21:15, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Haha, thanks for the compliments. Your initial skepticism is understandable. I imagine this page gets defiled a lot by uneducated youths. -- 15 February 2007 68.5.56.205

[edit] Issues with this article

Aside that it is largely unsourced, I ran across the following issues with this article:

• Characteristics is a huge list that needs to be reworked into proper prose
• Characteristics is full of vague and sometimes confusing or contradictory terms ("Relatively thin or thick guitar tone", "an uneasy atmosphere", ""evil" sound", "Fast, repetitive, aggressive drums" and then "the drums can take a slower role"
• Characteristics has lots of musicological terms which in itself isn't a bad thing but makes it hard to read
• how can "Some black metal songs" be a characteristic? I expect here something that would generally describe black metal not list all kinds of possibilities. Similar "Certain bands... "
• "...This wave included the British band Venom..." contradicts with "Venom cannot be credited as a true black metal band" a few paragraphs down
• It seems to me that "The First Wave" basically equals blackened thrash metal
• Modern Black Metal does reflect a third wave?
• "One of the most striking features in black metal is the use of facial corpsepaint" is confusing and vague: So it really isn't about music afterall but all about looks?

Spearhead 21:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

lol, as far as your last comment... yes! Well, okay, I'm kidding, it's not entirely about looks, but yes, looks must be emphasized, as in black metal image perhaps exceeds music (let's be honest here) than any other subgenre.

No, there is not enough evidence to claim there is a "third wave" per say, despite the fact that the genre still remains somewhat alive today. Saying there is a "Third wave" is pretty a profound statement and we have yet to see that happen.

Yes, the "First Wave" is basically "blackened thrash metal", as black metal builds off thrash itself! But the term "blackened thrash metal" was coined AFTER black metal, and became useful only after the "second wave" took the genre in a different direction, what with punk-like drums and even symphonic elements, so the term "blackened thrash" then became somewhat of a necessity.

I agree with the Venom statement, the individual who wrote that must be comparing them to Norwegian styles, so it does seem confusing. But they did in fact coin the term "black metal", and introduced the heavy emphasis on anti-Right Hand Path sentiment in music.

And lastly, I myself am "casually interested", and am in no way trying to make things complicated. In fact, I've been the one grouping and simplifying things on this page for the sake of the uneducated for weeks now! -- 68.4.207.20

Your work is much appreciated. Most metal articles are very messy, like including black metal, death metal and doom metal, as well as unsourced. I did some cleaning up and tagged issues that would require sourcing. And for my last statement I was half-joking. BTW consider registering an account - it makes communication a bit easier. Spearhead 23:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

What is your problem against tagging facts? This article does need references. Tagging where it does need so is helpful. Instead of removing them, consider providing actual citations for these statements. Those aren't of "the is blue" type. Spearhead 23:07, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

In response to the initial issues:

• Please look up the word 'striking'. Corpsepaint being striking does not mean that it is important, it means that it is highly noticeable.
• I think it is counterproductive to turn characteristics into a section of prose. I like it better in list form, and it is easier to read that way.
• Some of the descriptions are vague, I agree.
• The use of the phrases 'some songs' and 'some bands' is important to distinguish that a certain characteristic is not all-encompassing.
• The Venom thing is real annoying and needs to be fixed.
• Yes, the First wave is essentially blackened thrash metal.

Scskowron 23:10, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have in fact put the First and Second wave portions through major revisions, now that you brought that aspect to my intention (so thanks). And by striking, I mean noticeable. Corpsepaint does in fact strike you as a black metal thing, nobody else does it. So that's what I meant. As far as the tags thing, it just seems to me that it brings a level of discredit to the page to have that many "citation needed" things all over the page, and the thing is this is all true, not debateable. It just looks bad, and doesn't seem necessary for some of the stuff you tagged since a lot of it is so blatantly verifiable for anyone who just listens to a mere sample on Amazon, let alone a whole record. Citation claims should be reserved for controversial statements, or least so it seems. I know you mean well though.