Talk:Australia

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Contents 1 Residual power 2 Pronounciation 3 Colours 4 ABS statistics 5 Clocks 6 What global economic downturn? 7 Tasmania 8 "international rankings" 9 Category:Germanic culture 10 Beliefs of first immigrants, 48,000 years ago 11 Kazakh interwiki 12 Indigenous Australian culture 13 Megadiverse country 14 History 15 Program 16 Etymology 17 Needs to be updated 18 How long as Australia been populated? 19 Demographics

[edit] Residual power

The article states that s51 of the Constitution gives power to the commonwealth on certain subjects and leaves 'residual power' to the States. This view has been overturned since 1920 when the High Court decided the 'Engineers Case' (1920) 28 CLR 129. The court overturned the Reserved Powers doctrine and found that subject matters should not be interpreted strictly in the Constitution. Therefore the areas not covered in s51 can be legislated on by the Commonwealth. A recent example is the new IR laws, they are based on s51(xx) Corporations power, yet they encroach on a long held 'state power'.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 149.135.30.188 (talk • contribs) 14:35, 4 January 2007.

I'm not a legal expert, but surely saying that the powers given to the Commonwealth should not be strictly interpreted is not the same as removing the notion of residual power? JPD (talk) 12:21, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Well perhaps you could say that 'residual power' is a massive simplification. The states have power over all areas that the commonwealth does not wish to 'cover the field' (Clyde Engineering v Dacey). The commonwealth can legislate on all matters in s51, as well as those reasonably incidental, and in addition can legislate for any area so long as it is some how related to a s51 power. If the commonwealth enters an area of law long held by the states, then the state law is invalid (s109 of the Constitution). An example of this is the Tasmanian Dams Case - the commonwealth, among other things, used the 'External Affairs power' (s51xxix) put a ban on a Tasmanian dam. The only relevance being that environment is an international issue.

- Pat (author of first point).

[edit] Pronounciation

All of the pronounciations give /æɪ/ as the digraph in the second syllable. Although not Australian myself I have never heard it said like this with generally /eɪ/- di ? --Quentin Smith 13:09, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

It's the same vowel sound as in "trail", "frail", "railway", "tray", "stray", "fray" . I think they all have the same sound as /æɪ/. What are some words with /eɪ/ sounds? My ears are tuned for South Australian English if that makes a difference to my choice of rhyming words. --Scott Davis ^Talk 13:31, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm usually a bit unsure about the difference between /æɪ/ and /eɪ/. /æɪ/ seems to be a bit broader. The Macquarie Dictionary actually has /eɪ/ for all the words you mention (including Australia) and doesn't use /æɪ/ at all. JPD (talk) 15:58, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Exactly, /æɪ/ is broader - think maaaaaate - sometimes you can hear the glide quite distinctly. If you want to imagine what it sounds like, start off with /æ/ and /ɪ/ separately and then run them together. It's just like that.

Scott, if you want to know what /eɪ/ sounds like, picture an American saying way, say, bay - you can tell it's not Australian when you hear the vowel.

As to whether Australians actually say it, it depends. The broadness of dipthongs varies quite a bit in AusE - the less broad are associated with more refined speech. So it's not entirely incorrect to use /eɪ/ as the transcription for this phoneme, but my estimation is that that pronunciation is rare. My own pronunciation varies greatly according to context, and is sometimes /eɪ/, but I think I'm an aberration (non-Australians sometimes mistake me for a speaker of RP). The pure /eɪ/ pronunciation would sound a little foreign to an Australian - sort of Mid-Atlantic. Slac speak up! 20:26, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Wiktionary lists these pronunciations: AusE: IPA: /əˈstræɪliə, -jə/ RP: IPA: /ɒˈstreɪliə, -jə/ GenAm: IPA: /ɔˈstreliə, -jə/ which I think should be added. Paulownia5 20:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colours

Why are the national sports teams for Austraila Green and Yellow? Gam3

Its actually green and gold.... If anyone knows might be an idea to add to the article --Mcgrath50 23:02, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't the idea to represent the colours of Wattle? And i think they were only adopted in he 1970s. But i don't know where that can be verified. Merbabu 23:16, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know why they are the colours, but we have an article Green and gold. -- Chuq

[edit] ABS statistics

On SBS last night it said a new yearbook of ABS statistics had come out - does anyone have a copy, or have the main statistics been updated? Leon 06:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd try the ABS if I were you. JackofOz 06:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clocks

i heard somewhere that clocks in australia run counterclockwise. is this true? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.252.204.159 (talk • contribs).

This is totally not true, they run clockwise as everywhere else in the world. AxG ^(talk) _{(guest book)} 17:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Then again, if clocks did run counterclockwise there, wouldn't they just rename the direction to match with their clocks by definition of "clockwise"?--Loodog 03:26, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What global economic downturn?

The economy section is W R O N G

There is no global downturn. All industrialized countries are having the greatest boom since the 2000 IT days. If Australia is having problems with the economy it is not because there is something wrong with the world but because there is something wrong with Australia. The whole section is misleading because there is no global downturn, there might be in a few years if the USA housing market does not pick up but right now today the world economy is booming. So I will remove it within one week of today, someone else can if he/she wishes rewrite the section but to say that there is a global economic downturn is just wrong Potaaatos 22:30, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tasmania

It is clear from Australia (continent) that Tasmania is not part of the mainland (surprise, surprise!). Therefore we need to add it in to the mix. As the lead para was written, Tasmania seemed to figure nowhere in the makeup of Australia. JackofOz 23:49, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Tasmania is, however, an island. JPD (talk) 12:47, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes indeed it is. But it hardly does it justice to describe it as an anonymous member of "a number of islands in the Southern, Indian, and Pacific Oceans". That relegates it to the same status as some uninhabited island off the coast of Western Australia that nobody except geographers has ever heard of. Tasmania is a state, all by itself. We mention the miscellaneous islands and we mention the mainland. Tasmania also deserves separate mention. JackofOz 11:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

The way I see it, the "uninhabited island off the coast of Western Australia" is usefully included in the references to islands, which mainly refers to Tasmania, Kangaroo Island, the TSI, Tiwi Islands, etc. as well as Lord Howe and possibly the external territories. This is a purely physical description, so statehood is irrelevant. If there is justification for mentioning Tasmania separately, it is on grounds of size together with distance from the mainland, and would probably be better phrased as "the largest of which is Tasmania". JPD (talk) 12:17, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Tasmania is orders of magnitude larger than the other islands of Australia; it's not like, say, Canada which includes a mainland and many largish islands of similar size. I've mentioned Tasmania and also linked to list of islands of Australia. --bainer (talk) 12:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "international rankings"

how about adding in a table with australia's rankings on the HDI, the economist quality of life index etc. just like the article for norway has... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.236.136.8 (talk) 12:22, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Just letting you know. Complusory voting is not true. It is only compulsory to enrol to vote and turn up to the election and have your name ticked off the list. When you get into the booth you do not have to write/tick/mark anything on the ballot paper. You are free to leave it completely blank if you do not wish to vote.

The electoral act specifically requires voting, not "being recorded at a both". So yes, voting is really compulsory. Slac speak up! 12:34, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Germanic culture

Australia has been add to the new Category:Germanic culture by an editor. Please discuss this to ascertain whether this is appropriate or not - and act accordingly.-- Zleitzen^(talk) 13:39, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Beliefs of first immigrants, 48,000 years ago

What is the basis for the statements about the oral culture and and spiritual values of the first immigrants to Australia, 48,000 years ago? The statement "The first Australians were the ancestors of the current Indigenous Australians; they arrived via land bridges and short sea-crossings from present-day Southeast Asia. Most of these people were hunter-gatherers, with a complex oral culture and spiritual values based on reverence for the land and a belief in the Dreamtime." ought to be supported by a citation if one is available, and deleted otherwise. Agemegos 05:27, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kazakh interwiki

Please add Kazakh interwiki: [[kk:Аустралия]] --82.200.172.12 11:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Indigenous Australian culture

Cyberjunkie reverted my insertion that Australian culture was indigenous culture before 1788, saying it was not factual. I cannot possibly see how that is not factual, although I'm happy to discuss the precisse wording. Let's discuss it here rather than having a revert war! (and ps: apologies for not puttinga comment on my revert!) RayNorris 09:56, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

You added the following, along with a main link to Australian Aboriginal culture:

Before 1788, the culture of most Australians was the Australian Aboriginal culture.

That's a silly statement. Australia, and thus Australian culture, did not exist as a tangible concept before European discovery and then settlement. We are discussing Australian culture.--cj | talk 09:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what you've just said would be considered by some people to be offensively racist. No matter - I presume we agree that we are striving here for a NPOV. Anyway, how about the following sentence instead, which says the same thing but a bit more wordily, and maybe less likely to be interpreted as a political statement: "Before 1788, Australia had a population of 300,000-400,000 people who had a well-defined culture, which we now call Australian Indigenous Culture. After British settlement in 1788, the population swelled from the influx of British, and the dominant culture switched very quickly to being an Anglo-Celtic culture." Note that this pair of sentences is totally NPOV, and has no political overtones that I'm aware of. Now I'm happy to discuss the wording of what I wrote with you, but you seem to be saying either that Indigenous people aren't Australians, or that they had no culture, neither of which I can agree with. Or are you saying something else? RayNorris 09:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally, I've just noticed that you've reverted my insertion even though I suggested we should discuss the issue here rather than start a revert war. I don't think that's the sort of behaviour one expects from someone who claims admin status. RayNorris 09:48, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure that I agree with Cyberjunkie as regards including indigenous culture in the culture section, but he is correct. There wasn't "a well-defined culture" now called "Australian Indigenous Culture". There were many cultures, which may seem quite similar to each other when compared with European cultures, but were quite different. While they were all Australian cultures in the sense that they existed and belonged in Australia, they weren't one Australian culture and didn't involve any sense of "Australia". JPD (talk) 10:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your point that there wasn't one well-defined culture. My apologies - I was being sloppy. There were of course many cultures. But CyberJunkie seems to have some sort of terra nullius argument that there wasn't any culture in Australia before 1788, which is what I reacted against. As I said, I'm very happy to discuss here a good NPOV statement that we can put in here, but the current statement in the article that the culture was always Anglo-Celtic until recent times is clearly incorrect and needs to be fixed. That all I was trying to do. (I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition...) RayNorris 10:10, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I understood Cyberjunkie to be saying that the section (including the statement about being Anglo-Celtic) to be about the concept of Australian culture, not culture in Australia. He was quite clear in saying that it was the concept of Australia that started at that time, not the existence of culture. The issues of discussion are whether the section should cover culture in Australia more generally, and if not, whether the sentence in the article clearly conveys the meaning ascribed to it by Cyberjunkie.

The section is mainly about what has affected current culture than history, so the current content would seem sufficient. I would actually argue that the "primary basis" of Australian culture remains Anglo-Celtic even now, even though other influences have become much more important over time. JPD (talk) 10:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anybody's disputing the fact that our culture is now primarily Anglo-Celtic. The problem is the implied asserion in the article that it has always been that way: "The primary basis of Australian culture until the mid-20th century was Anglo-Celtic".

Anyway, and sadly, I've got better things to do with my time than mess about with details like this. I'll simply insert "Since 1788" before this sentence, which at least means it's technically correct, even if (as I think) it does a disservice to the people that lived here before then. I am saddened that even though the Australian courts have long thrown out the concept of Terra Nullius, it still lives on in the implicit assumptions and attitudes of many Australians.RayNorris 10:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

If you think Cyberjunkie is suggesting some sort of terra nullius, then you are missing his point completely. My point about the primary basis of Australian culture still being Anglo-Celtic is that the sentence could be changed to say "The primary basis of Australian culture is Anglo-Celtic, although ... have contributed to distinctive Australian features.", removing any perceived implication that the sentence is covering pre-1788 culture. JPD (talk) 10:58, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ahem. I agree that your sentence is also OK. But I think you have missed CyberJunkie's point. I quote: "Australia, and thus Australian culture, did not exist as a tangible concept before European discovery and then settlement." I think the 300 000 people who lived in Australia then would beg to differ. I think their land was a very tangible concept to them. There is this implicit assumption by a huge number of people that "we" discovered Australia and that it didn't really exist as an entity before then. But there was a country, one which we invaded and renamed, and we now find that all a bit embarrassing, and so it's easier to pretend there was no history of the country before 1788. It's that attitude which I find so saddening.

But in any case, I think we've wandered off the point, and wikipedia is not really the place for these discussions. I suggest we stop here.RayNorris 11:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

You're trying way to hard to make a point here. Stop misrepresenting my words to make it.--cj | talk 11:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Ray, now you're not only misrepresenting the point, but linking it to completely irrelevant things. How is it any worse to invade the single country that you insist existed than to invade the land of many different groups? The distinction isn't relevant to any questions of embarassment. Anyway, to get back to the article, the culture section is not the place to focus on history. I think my suggested opening sentence does a better job of making it clear the focus is on culture and how history has shaped it, rather than the history of culture, as as well as removing the questionable implication that Anglo-Celtic culture is no longer the primary basis of Australian culture. Does anyone disagree? JPD (talk) 12:28, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I've absolutely no idea how you interpret my comments to mean what you just said. I suspect you're pulling my leg, right? ;-) Point taken. Anyway, to get back to the article, yes, as I said before, I think your suggested opening sentence is fine. My only concern originally (Sigh...) was that we shouldn't imply that there has never been any culture other than Anglo-Celtic. Your suggested sentence, concentrating on the present, is a good solution, and I think will satisfy both wings of the political spectrum. RayNorris 12:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Megadiverse country

I noticed that under the Flora and Fauna section Australia is considered a megadiverse country.

However, when I click on the megadiverse countries link, Australia is not on that list, nor is Australia highlighted on the map of that page.

So,either Australia is indeed considered a megadiverse country and it should be on that list, or it is not and the reference to it being a megadiverse country should be removed from its description.

Just thought you might want to follow this up.

Cheers! Geckoz 05:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I guess it depends on who is making up the list and for what purpose. Australia's fauna and flora is very diverse, and possibly more important, highly endemic, something that cannot be said for most of the countries on that list. -- Michael Johnson 08:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The article megadiverse countries only lists the signatories to the Like-Minded Megadiverse Countries (I think, its hard to tell with no source information provided); regardless it's not a complete lists of places that have been described as megadiverse by various organisations.--Peta 02:17, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History

Just read through this section which states:

The first undisputed recorded European sighting of the Australian mainland was made by the Dutch navigator Willem Janszoon, who sighted the coast of Cape York Peninsula in 1606.

Should this be re-worded slightly to make it clear that there are theories about other sightings such as the article in [1]? In notide that there is also a History of Australia before 1788 page and a European exploration of Australia page which each give slightly different versions. I'm not sure how much detail should be found here, but to me the current sentence is a little ambiguous. I'm not an expert in Australian history so will leave it to others who are no doubt more qualified than I am to determin what if any treatment should be given to competing historical claims. --Hmette 06:22, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The specificity you would like is best kept to the daughter articles, being as this is a summary article. The sentence you quote does not deny there are other claims; in fact, it implies there are others, but states that this is the earliest undisputed European sighting. For overview purpose, I think this is fine.--cj | talk 08:31, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Program

According to my copy of the Australian Government's Style Manual (1978 edition, page 10), program is the preferred spelling of this word. I think this spelling should be used in the article and not the longer version. Does anyone have any objection to this? Michael Glass 12:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Both forms are correct in Australian English, so (per the Manual of Style) you should not be changing one form to another. Where in this article is it an issue anyway?--cj | talk 12:55, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

There were two of each - so I change two of them and it is now consistent. Alan Davidson 13:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Etymology

The first use of the word "Australia" in the English language was in 1625. The words "A note of Australia del Espiritu Santo, written by Master Hakluyt" - were published by Samuel Purchas in 1625 - Purchas, vol. iv, p. 1422-1432. It was an anglicised translation of Captain de Quiros's words from 1606, who, believing he had landed at Terra Australis, named the land "La Austrialia del Espiritu Santo". However, he was at Vanuatu at the time. External Reference - an image of the actual page in the original publication: http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=rbdk&fileName=d0404//rbdkd0404.db&recNum=304&itemLink=r%3Fintldl%2Frbdkbib%3A@field%28NUMBER%2B@od1%28rbdk%2Bd0404%29%29&linkText=0 SWCS 10:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Needs to be updated

Map proves Portuguese discovered Australia: new book. All these articles need to be updated with at least a sentence about the claims made in the book Beyond Capricorn:

• Australia
• History of Australia
• European exploration of Australia

I can't do that because this article is protected, and I don't want to mess up the other articles. 220.227.179.4 10:53, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

See Theory of Portuguese discovery of Australia. It remains disputed.--cj | talk 02:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

• yes it does. But makes these wikipedia articles about Australia very biased, towards something that now got sufficient profs. Unless, the Portuguese used mediums to guess how the Australian coast was like, so it is disputed because of that. It is a fact that lots of people win the lottery. This article is not up-to-date with the latest news:

Map 'proves' Portuguese found Australia Wednesday Mar 21 16:53 AEDT

A 16th century maritime map proves Portuguese adventurers, not British or Dutch, were the first Europeans to discover Australia, according to a new book.

The book, Beyond Capricorn, says the map, which accurately marks geographical sites along Australia's east coast in Portuguese, proves Portuguese seafarer Christopher de Mendonca led a fleet of four ships into Botany Bay in 1522 - almost 250 years before Britain's Captain James Cook.--82.155.106.144 01:44, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I wouldnt say this counts as proof. If that is supposed to be Botany Bay, why are there two huge islands in the middle of it, and what are all the islands to the east? --Astrokey44 03:02, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• WP:NOR--85.240.0.79 10:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How long as Australia been populated?

I've always understood that Australia has been populated for at least 60, 000 years. Probably much longer.

I've seen reports that comment that perhaps Homo Erectus (or however you spell it) was here and then Homo Sapian wiped them out.

Anyway.

http://www.ecobooks.com/books/futureat.htm This book is grand.

"Until recently the earliest evidence of human occupation in Australia was dated to 38,000 B.P. According to (Thorn et al 1999: 591-612) various dating techniques have given a range of 57,000 – 71,000 B.P. for the Lake Mungo remains. This has been disputed by (Bowler et al 2000: 719–726) who gave an age of 40,000 B.P.

The dating was resolved in 2003 with the use of Optically Stimulating Luminescence, considered the most accurate due to the method of collecting samples, giving a similar date of 40,000 B.P and a general consensus that this is correct."

This is from an A+ paper I wrote for university. I assume it would be an acceptable date for WP.

The Lake mungo site is in the southern part of Australia so obviously the Aboriginals must have arrived in the north (most likely point of entry being either the Kimberley, Arnhem Land or Cape York Peninsula) earlier than 40,000 B.P. to have migrated so far south but the oldest evidence in the Northern Territory (rock paintings) is dated to only 38,000 B.P. Ochre rocks with a pattern of wear consistent with use in art were dated to 60,000 B.P. but this is contentious considering that the oldest European art is only 35 - 40,000 years old. Wayne 14:56, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Demographics

The demographics of Australia should be added. Number of Australians overseas, languages spoken in Australia, breakdown of ethic backgrounds etc.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.85.161.196 (talk • contribs) 04:21, 1 April 2007 (ACST).

Such information is already present in Australia#Demographics.--cj | talk 18:58, 31 March 2007 (UTC)