Talk:Barack Obama

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Archives 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8

Contents 1 Smoking 2 The exhaustive controversies survey. 2.1 2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008 2.2 Race and "blackness" 2.3 Antoin Rezko real estate 2.4 George W. Haywood stock investing 2.5 Criticism of Wal-Mart and Wake Up Wal-Mart support 2.6 Voting "present" as Illinois state senator 2.7 Hussein 2.8 Obama/Osama 2.9 Effort to quit smoking 2.10 Criticism from Australian Prime Minister John Howard 2.11 False "madrassa" report/smear/attack 2.12 Mother's ancestors owned slaves 2.13 Parking tickets at Harvard 3 1984 4 Making Obama - The Media Spin of "Mis-information" 5 The origin of Obama's first name is presumably... 6 Relentless Censorship of Anything that Would Hurt Obama 7 "not easily pegged to typical U.S. categories of the left or right"? 8 Move article to Barack Hussein Obama 9 The "ever-present Obama" article. 10 Obama WAS Registered "Muslim" in his Schools and attended mosques 11 Article excessively long?

[edit] Smoking

Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

That's not very civil. A better way to describe it would be this: "Obama's cigarette smoking is getting increased press coverage lately and I think it merits mention in this article. I believe there was a poll out recently (the standard "Would you vote for a qualified _____ for president?" poll) which showed that a large percentage of people would not. I think this merits mention in the article." I would agree that it should go on his campaign page, but not here. The fact that Senator Obama smokes is not notable. The fact that it may affect his campaign, and that his campaign has responded with a "Quit Smoking With Barack" program, is. But not here. Lots of people smoke. Mykll42 20:07, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

So basically the answer is, "No, but we can stick it in an article that no one will ever read." Out of curiosity, does the Obama campaign have a full time staff of volunteers devoted to running this article? There's nothing to prevent that from happening. Given the way any mildly negative information gets suppressed, it wouldn't surprise me. The ironic thing is I think Obama would be better served by un unbiased account of his potential strengths and flaws. But I guess you would rather make this into a second Obama campaign web site. Maybe we should put up a link where people can make donations. Ogeez 22:02, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I personally don't think his being a smoker is negative information and I think his attempt to quit will strike a positive chord with the electorate. My problems with it are not the NPOV issues but the notability issue. About 25% of Americans smoke. I do agree that the election page could be more prominent. Oh, and I don't work for the Obama campaign. Please be civil. Mykll42 22:13, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Please be civil Ogeez and assume good faith of other editors. Referring to editors as "fascists" or accusing editors of working for Obama is not a good way to go about improving this article or any articles on Wikipedia. This article is NPOV and well referenced. It was even a featured article at one point. The Obama smoking issue is not relevant to his notability, per BLP. I understand he has recently quit (or is still currently trying to quit), and this fact may be relevant given that it's generated the note that it has (do a google search for Obama quit smoking if you must), but since he's decided to quit and there's not been any proof of him smoking since, calling him a smoker in this article would qualify as original research, which is not allowed. I know it may appear this article is biased in favor of him, but it has been strictly upheld and maintained per wikipedia policies. Obama just happens to not have generated a lot of negative note, (real) criticism, or (real) controversy.

It might help not to look at articles like "We need to have a balanced amount of positive and negative information in this article". Rather, look at it like "We need to use NPOV language/wording, and include relevant, notable information about this person/thing/place/idea in order to represent accurately the person/thing/place/idea we are writing an article about." --Ubiq 23:28, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Just look back at the rest of this talk page. Every time something negative comes up, it is deemed "not notable." Yet the article includes shameless puffery such as: "The Washington Post noted his ability to work effectively with both Democrats and Republicans, and to build bipartisan coalitions." Is there any other politician who gets this type of treatment? I make no apologies for referring to the editors of this article as fascists, nor for accusing them of working for Obama. Just because they use polite language and come up with excuses like "undue weight" for rejecting negative information does not justify the ridiculous pro-Obama bias of this article. It's not like you're fooling anyone. People will come here looking for answers to questions like "Does he smoke?" or "Is he Muslim?" and instead see this puff-piece that refuses even to acknowledge these issues. Ogeez 00:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because he isn't Muslim. It is clearly indicated in its own section that he joined the United Church of Christ in his 20s. The only issue I have is that more should be explained about how his mom disliked organized religion and his step-father was somewhat secular also. That would finally clear up the whole Muslim thing. But this is completely offtopic. As for on topic stuff, WP:SMOKERS clearly says quitting or smoking does not matter unless it plays an integral part of his life. Sure there are "multiple available citations" but that "does not mean it is notable for inclusion in a Wikipedia article." Gdo01 00:23, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Stop right there. WP:SMOKERS is an essay I assembled, one looking for consensus concerning article subjects who are smokers. It is not in any way official policy. I myself am actually of the opinion that Obama's public effort to quit smoking is notable enough for inclusion in the article. Italiavivi 02:42, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

My mistake but I still don't think quitting smoking is important until he makes it important. He only seriously addressed it once and has not seemed to address it again. Gdo01 00:04, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You win. According to official Wikipedia policy, we are not allowed to mention the smoking habits of a guy who wants to be president of the United States and a role model for children. You guys certainly know Wikipedia policy better than I do. I'll give you that much. Maybe we could start a new policy on WP:How_his_parents_met that would say statements like this are not notable: "His parents met while both were attending the East-West Center of the University of Hawaii at Manoa, where his father was enrolled as a foreign student." Or is that more important that his smoking? Ogeez 00:39, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm going to ask you again to not call me a fascist. The object here is to create an encyclopedia article. Between 15-25% of Americans smoke. Barack Obama the Senator smoking is not notable. As an aspect of his political campaign, it is. I note you haven't added anything to the (unprotected, btw) campaign page, or its discussion page for that matter. If we were truly trying to remove negative information, don't you think his past cocaine use would be the first to go? Mykll42 00:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

His smoking might not be notable, but his very public effort to quit smoking is. The Obamas have been very open about it, with countless reliable sources available. Italiavivi 02:50, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the above point.

Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". --Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I wish every political figure had as good an article as this. Steve Dufour 19:52, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Wikipedia, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits [John Brown, smoker; Jane Brown, non-smoker]. Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out [though it bothers me, personally, that he smokes]. --Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that including it would be an example of recentism. I don't agree that if it's included in one article, it should be included for all articles — notability of a specific event or characteristic should be determined on an article-by-article basis. I'm certainly sympathetic to the argument that it should be included since the media made a (relatively) big deal out of it a few weeks ago — this has entirely died down, though. If it comes up again in a big way in the campaign, then it should probably be included, at the very least in his 2008 campaign article as a campaign-related issue. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:11, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

It bears pointing out for the sake of newer users that WP:RECENT is an opinion essay, not a Wikipedia guideline or Wikipedia policy. It is a concise expression of opinion, and does not carry inherent weight in determining article content. I am also personally of the opinion that WP:RECENT directly contradicts WP:NOTABILITY, which is a guideline, in that the notability policy specifically states that notability is generally permanent. Italiavivi 17:41, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Update: On Larry King Live, March 19, 2007, Barack re-affirmed he is still an ex-smoker - now even more on a non-issue. There is no need to note all the ex-smokers in bios! Samatva 09:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Except when they bring it up on every interview they give... Obama's made his quitting notable. --Bobblehead 04:12, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the fact that he, and the media, keep making it public issue,that he is quitting smoking is certainly worthwhile to put on here Vegeta206 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The exhaustive controversies survey.

Without question, Sen. Barack Obama's actions have come under intense scrutiny since announcing his bid for the White House. Allegations of controversy have arisen concerning many elements of Sen. Obama's life and person, including on this article's Talk page. Some dispute whether or not many of these elements even qualify as controversial, and many dispute these elements based upon notability. It's the goal of this survey to gather a snapshot of consensus concerning the notability of these many elements.

If you are a subscriber to the opinion essay "polls are evil," you're in no way required to participate. No one's forcing you, I simply ask that you not go out of your way to disrupt those who don't mind using a snapshot format.

I gathered most of these items from Talk page archives, and tried to present them as accurately and neutrally as possible. In some cases, I could not find extensive sources, but used the sources listed by past Talk participants. If I have missed any items/elements, feel free to add them in a sub-section with format similar to those below.

Please add *Notable or *Not notable following each item, based upon whether or not you feel each item is notable enough for inclusion in the article, then sign your vote with ~~~~.

---

[edit] 2004: Denied 'unequivocally' running for president in 2008

"I was elected yesterday," Obama said. "I have never set foot in the U.S. Senate. I've never worked in Washington. And the notion that somehow I'm immediately going to start running for higher office just doesn't make sense. So look, I can unequivocally say I will not be running for national office in four years, and my entire focus is making sure that I'm the best possible senator on behalf of the people of Illinois." [1]

• Not notable. Changing one's mind is not inherently controversial; he is entitled to changing his mind without it be construed as a "controversy." Also, this detail is already prominently noted at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even close to notable, and a mile from "controversial". --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Any senator running for election or newly elected will deny their intention to run for future office. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Unfortunately, this is a standard politician lie. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:35, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Shows his admitted lack of experience. Will definately be noted in the race! - Eisenmond 20:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable It is not uncommon for politicians to deny they will run for office days before they announce they'll run for office, I don't see why him saying he would not run in 2004 is applicable. Especially not in the main article, it might warrant a sentence in the campaign article in the History/Background. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notableas a controversy. However, it probably should be included in a campaign article or a campaign section. Briefly Jiffypopmetaltop 19:35, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable as a controversy, but I agree it belongs in the campaign article...AltonBrownFTW 21:56, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Race and "blackness"

Since his Senate race in 2004, some American politicians and commentators, many African-American, have asserted that Sen. Obama is not "African-American" or not "black like me" because he was not descended from American slaves. His "blackness" has been questioned.

[2]

• Notable. Sen. Obama's racial identity is a notable, widely discussed, reliably sourced, controversial matter. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, though it does lead to some remarkable circumlocutions, wherein it's not suitable in some circles to refer to a man whose father was African and whose mother is American as African-American. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Though I believe this is more of a campaign issue than a personal issue. If it was first brought up in his Senate race, I concede it belongs here. Making this debate balanced will be tricky, because someone saying a man of African descent is not African American is news, while someone saying he is African American is not. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable. Since when is a man's race any qualification or disqualification for the Presidency? What exactly does any of it have to do with whether or not he can do the job?72.230.38.54 00:26, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I just don't think it should matter personally. It would detract from the article a bit IMO unless it was discussed just masterfully. --Ubiq 02:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Given that he may become the first black US president. Ogeez 03:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Played roles in his campaigns. - PoliticalJunkie 20:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - for obvious historical reasons - Eisenmond 20:58, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It would have to be handled carefully as the people bringing this up generally aren't questioning if he's African-American, but if he has had the "African-American experience" and can relate to the trouble African-Americans face in this country. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and given due weight (with sources from varied perspectives) in the article's Cultural and political image section. --HailFire 22:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this would be a good place for it. Would you care to give it a shot yourself, HailFire? Italiavivi 21:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the most notable info has already be added by previous edits citing commentators Younge (The Nation), Crouch (New York Daily News), and Page (Houston Chronicle) <click on author's names to see where each is cited and to read their articles>. The reader is presented with sharply contrasting viewpoints ("Black Like Me," "Not Black Like Me," and "...Silly Question") and can decide for him/herself what's controversy and what's just useful, notable information. There's certainly other sources we could add, but I'm not sure they would offer anything new beyond what's already eloquently addressed in these three articles. --HailFire 22:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I should have clicked before I typed—the links to both the Crouch and Page articles are now broken. If they can't be recovered (just tried), we should come up with alternative wording and sources. For starters, there's this and this. --HailFire 22:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC); Also this, possibly this, and certainly this. --HailFire 11:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Trying this. --HailFire 06:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable But for the fact that he is biracial, not that he isn't descended from slaves.Shakam 16:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Yeah, it's time for this to be written up. I suggest that Shakam takes the first crack at it. Jiffypopmetaltop 19:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

• COMMENT: He has to deal with racism just like any other Black person-- plus Kenya was under British colonial rule (a brutal Racist system) and his ancestors suffered under that system. People who say he isn't African American are really narrow-minded. Is there only one way to be African American? Who here is pretending to 'decide' who gets to be Black and who doesn't? Ridiculous. 128.138.173.224 06:42, 19 March 2007 (UTC) (reinstated this as a comment and moved to bottom of section)

• Notable, but only because people have made it an issue. His not being the so-called "American Black" is not inherently important but people have started talking about it. Also, he's just as African American as the next guy. He also would have to face racism just like anyone else, because his skin color is Black, and Americans are great at making assumptions (I mean come on, don't deny it, we are). Stop Me Now! 01:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antoin Rezko real estate

In November 2006, Barack Obama acknowledged his participation in a real estate deal to which Antoin "Tony" Rezko, an Obama campaign contributor, was a participant. Under the deal, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining properties, with Rezko later reselling part of his parcel to Obama. No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation. Obama acknowledges that the exchange may have appeared improper, and said "I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it." [3]

• Not notable. No laws broken, no wrong-doing alleged. A minor "appearance of impropriety" at best. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not even Caesar's wife. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:49, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable All of the pertinent information is write there in the description: "No laws are alleged to have been broken and Obama is not under investigation." Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Like previously stated, no wrong-doing or laws broken. --Ubiq 02:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Obama's close personal and business ties to a man indicted for extortion is notable. The phrase "no laws are alleged to have been broken" is a typical sleezy politician non-denial. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Nothing wrong's been done. - PoliticalJunkie 20:37, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - This article should provide an answer to controversial issues, so as to provide an accurate account of issues, especially those that have the "appearance of impropriety" - Eisenmond 21:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable An associate got taken down for events not related to Obama. If it were similar to Tom Delay's associates going down, then it'd be notable. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable because censoring it implies lack of a neutral view. Supporters of Sen. Obama may take comfort that he provided an explanation, i.e. in retrospect, he wouldn't have done it. Actually, this is the reason that I visited the Obama article...to find out what the heck the fuss was about but now I see I have to go elsewhere to find it....that makes wikipedia look bad. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by TL500 (talk • contribs).

• Not Notable, if my understanding is right. All it says is he and another guy bought property and the other guy later sold it back to him. Unless some details were included that were signifigant, I would avoid stuffing it into the article.

[edit] George W. Haywood stock investing

Sen. Obama purchased more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors. Obama said he “did not see any potential conflict in getting advice, in terms of a stockbroker,” from Mr. Haywood. The senator said he told the broker he wanted an “aggressive strategy” for investing, but he did not identify stocks, and has referred to their arrangement as a blind trust. Obama later sold the stocks at a net loss of $13,000.

• Not notable. Blind trust which Sen. Obama liquidated at a net loss. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• The whole damn point of blind trusts is you don't know what's in them. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:50, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See As of now, this is just election news. If talk of it persists or escalates, it will be notable. But not until then. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not something he was aware of and he had a net loss to avoid conflict of interest when he found out about it. --Ubiq 02:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See I agree we should see how this plays out. Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable It seems to have died out already. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - if it comes back up. Remember, financial responsibility is a major point in the elections - Wait and see - Eisenmond 21:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Wait and See Too early to tell what affect this might have as far as the "notable" meter goes. During campaigns anything remotely interesting is front page news and this falls under that header right now. --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism of Wal-Mart and Wake Up Wal-Mart support

Sen. Obama is a vocal supporter of Wake Up Wal-Mart. He has criticized Wal-Mart's labor standards, including pay rates and allegedly diminished benefits. [4]

• Not notable. This is a political position, and belongs at Political views of Barack Obama. Editors cannot claim every single contentious political position, such as labor/union views in this case, as a "controversy." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Italiavivi nailed it. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Agreed. Should be in his political views page. Not his biography. --Ubiq 02:31, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:28, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Belongs at political views page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:38, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Who cares? :) --Bobblehead 21:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable and already in main article's Political advocacy section. A political position, not a controversy. --HailFire 22:47, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Voting "present" as Illinois state senator

As a state senator, Sen. Obama voted "present" on some bills related to abortion, concealed firearms, and strip club zoning. Obama's campaign has explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of a bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to "score points." [5]

• Not notable. Senators are entitled to voting "present," especially when faced with bills that contain poison pills. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Might be notable; who says it is other than that blog? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I'm still unclear as to how a state senator exercising his right to vote 'present' is notable or a controversy. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not a controversy or anything out of the ordinary. --Ubiq 02:34, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not even a reliable source. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note (re anti-abortion opposition to Obama's speaking at Saddleback Church#Global summit) and already noted. --HailFire 22:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hussein

Due to America's familiarity with Saddam Hussein, some have drawn attention to Sen. Obama's middle name also being Hussein. Polling indicates that many believe Obama's middle name will hurt him in a presidential election [6], and Republican Party supporters have drawn attention to his middle name (referring to Obama in full as "Barack Hussein Obama") on several occasions. [7] Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable, despite this being fallacious race-baiting smear at its absolute worst. Right or wrong, his middle name is controversial to Americans, and Republican Party operatives are openly waving his middle name about as a tactic. Decidedly notable, for better or worse. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable, or at least not a controversy. (How can someone's given name be controversial? What it is is a place where idiots can attack; that's not controversy, though. Minor point of vulnerability.) --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable We very clearly include his middle name right up there on the top. It's the second word of the article. Any attempt to use his middle name as a campaign issue belongs on the person doing the campaigning first, on his campaign page second. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable for the well-articulated reasons above. 128.103.14.115 01:04, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Hmm, I could see a Silly Anti-Barack Obama tactics being made for things like people using his name against him, heh. But I don't think it belongs in his biography, along with the Fox News madrassah controversy. --Ubiq 02:36, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable His name is not "controversial," but it is certainly interesting. People want to know what his name indicates about his background and heritage. This is a perfect example where the people trying to protect Obama may be hurting him by suppressing discussion of this issue. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable The first sentence in the article covers it. - PoliticalJunkie 20:39, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - again, this is an issue that Americans will want to look into, and the information about the "controversy" of his middle name should be listed so as to provide a more thorough account. If he loses because of name recognition you can guarantee it will be listed, so why not take note of it now - think outside the box. - Eisenmond 21:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Especially not in regards to Barack Obama, put it under Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

• Kinda Sorta Obama does make mention of it in The Audacity of Hope, but that was regarding to his Senate career. Shakam

[edit] Obama/Osama

CNN mistakenly used Obama's last name instead of "Osama" in the headline of a report on the hunt for al-Qaeda's leader. [8] Yahoo News mistakenly attached a photograph of Obama to a caption which read "Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida." [9] Both CNN and Yahoo! have issued apologies/explanations. Fox News chief Roger Ailes has deliberately switched Bin Laden's name with Obama's in jokes. [10]

• Not notable. Typographical/technical errors might be warranted on the news outlets' articles, but decidedly not here. Roger Ailes' remark belongs at Fox News alongside a section on the Nevada Democratic Party canceling a Fox-hosted debate due to the "joke." Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe notable in an article about CNN's copy editors or whoever writes the headlines. Roger Ailes' very funny hah hah jokes might have a place as an example of Republican cheap shots, but that's about it. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable See above Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable While I disagree that they were "mistakes", it would seemingly need to belong only in the respective articles for CNN and Yahoo either way. --Ubiq 02:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to address this than stick our heads in the sand and pretend it's not an issue. This mix-up has happened over and over. Ogeez 03:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable But does it merit mention at the presidential campaign page? (Someone recently added it there) - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Ted Kennedy even made this mistake on the campaign trail, or senate floor, or something... I remember... It keeps happening, and it will stick in people's mind. The issue is very notable - Eisenmond 21:10, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Same as Hussein being his middle name.. Stupid Americans. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable i agree, this is being blown out of proportion, is this the only dirt the media can dig up about Obama?--Lerdthenerd 09:56, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Effort to quit smoking

Sen. Obama is a smoker [11], and is in the middle of a public effort to quit smoking [12]. His effort includes the use of Nicorette, a nicotine replace gum. Michelle Obama agreed to her husband's presidential campaign on the condition that he cease smoking for good, and calls herself "the one who outed" her husband's smoking. [13] Fox News' John Gibson covered Obama's smoking as a "dirty little secret" during a Fox News broadcast. [14] A "Quit Smoking with Obama" effort has been assembled by participants on Obama's campaign site. [15]

• Notable. Michelle Obama's reluctance for her husband to run for president was widely covered prior to his announcement, and that his agreement to quit smoking played a part in assuaging her concerns is decidedly notable. He has been public and open about his effort to quit smoking, despite attempts by political opponents to use it as an attack. Multiple reliable sources, including primary source interviews with himself and his wife specifically on the subject. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable While I agree that smoking in general, even in a politician, is not notable, his campaign staff have made it notable with the "Quit Smoking" group. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable to an extent I agree that the Quit Smoking bit is notable, but I think referring to him as a "smoker" is false, especially if he's quit. So we'd have to be careful. --Ubiq 02:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• What's quite fascinating is that there seems to be more concern for his status as a wannabe ex-smoker thn there is for his African ancestry. The times they are a-changing. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable For reasons described above. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It's playing a role in his campaign, one article I read talked about him chewing Nicorette gum. His effort to stop smoking has become extremely open and public. - PoliticalJunkie 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - With all the current smoking backlash, including states banning smoking in places of business across the country, his smoking habit is a big deal... Remember the Dole campaign in 1996? The cigarette costume guy was everywhere... still a big deal! - Eisenmond 21:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - But only as a sentence in the 2008 Presidential election section and only in regards to him promising to quit smoking in exchange for his wife letting him run. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - it is notable, it is a fact, the people are obviously interested into the issue, so it should be seen on here Vegeta206 22:38, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism from Australian Prime Minister John Howard

Shortly after Sen. Obama officially announced his candidacy for president, Australian Prime Minister John Howard unleashed a scathing attack of Obama's stance on the Iraq War. [16] Howard said "I think that would just encourage those who wanted completely to destabilise and destroy Iraq, and create chaos and victory for the terrorists to hang on and hope for (an) Obama victory," and that "If I was running al-Qaeda in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008, and pray, as many times as possible, for a victory not only for Obama, but also for the Democrats." Obama brushed aside Howard's criticism, characterizing him as a close personal friend of George W. Bush, and highlighting Australia's comparative troop contribution in Iraq. Howard was harshly criticized by Australian opposition leader Kevin Rudd, Republican U.S. Senator John Cornyn of Texas, and several others in response.

• Notable, including in the main article. This is a highly unusual partisan attack from a foreign head of government. The notability of this is undeniable. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But briefly. It was big news when it happened but it remained big news for all of a week. We should make sure not to give undue weight. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Agreed that it's pretty notable criticism. But like Mykill42 said, let's keep it brief. --Ubiq 02:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable, as above. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Especially given the importance of the Iraq issue. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Also covered at the presidential campaign page. - PoliticalJunkie 20:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Eisenmond 21:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable But already mentioned in the campaign article, so doesn't need to be included in this article. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] False "madrassa" report/smear/attack

See Insight Magazine#Madrassa. A false report originating from Washington Times-owned Insight Magazine accuses one of Sen. Obama's elementary schools in Indonesia of being an Islamic seminary (a "wahhabist" "madrassa"), and alleges Sen. Obama to have been a Muslim in the past. [17] The report bears a resemblance to a false email forward that has been in circulation for some time. [18] The report also claims to have received their information from operatives of Sen. Hillary Clinton. The claims against the school itself are debunked by a CNN investigation in Jakarta [19], claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself, and Sen. Clinton denies any involvement with Insight Magazine whatsoever. Fox News issued a retraction, warning their reporters to take care with information retrieved from the internet. [20]

"claims of Sen. Obama having ever been a Muslim are refuted by himself"

Sorry. This doesn't pass the critical thinking test. If Obama really ever was a Muslim do you really think he would let people know about it?129.98.225.131 16:03, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

• Notable, but must be written in full compliance with WP:BLP and WP:Undue weight. Must note that the report was fully debunked, wholly false, and originated from a right-wing outlet. Only warrants a summary, with full details belonging at Insight, Fox News, or a scandal-specific article. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable I think reporting this on Obama's page opens up a very frightening situation. Any story could be fabricated, distributed, broadcast, and then merit a mention in an article. The incident is news and, I believe, already has its own article. I recommend linking to it in the Further Reading section and leaving it at that. The same story could have been written about absolutely anyone, it has nothing to do with Obama. Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not in this article anyway. A link to the article about it might be acceptable though. --Ubiq 02:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable Better to clear the air. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Non notable A link to the madrassa article is all that's necessary. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - yes. People have questions about the issue, so it should be noted, with the quote about it as written in his book. - Eisenmond 21:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable It has its own article. However, having said that, it shouldn't be included in this article as its more in relation to poor reporting by Insight than anything Obama did. Maybe a link in the See also section. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable as note and already noted. --HailFire 22:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Non notableNot for this page.Jiffypopmetaltop 00:45, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mother's ancestors owned slaves

Two of Sen. Obama's ancestors, a great-great-great-great grandfather and great-great-great-great-great-grandmother on his mother's side [21], each owned two slaves.

• Not notable. That's four "greats" and five "greats," for those too lazy to count. Italiavivi 20:55, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not the slightest bit notable or relevant to him and would likely only be included as an effort to smear him. --Ubiq 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• As, somehow a criticism? No. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 03:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Ok, I admit this is not significant. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Not notable. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - Seeing as how a great number of our historical leaders are now (noted) as being slave-owners, should it not be fair to mention that his bloodline is tainted as well? (sarcasm intended) - Eisenmond 21:25, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Even if true, his mom seems to have made up for any past transgressions of a distant relative by marrying an African-American and producing a child. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable So what? Nearly all African Americans' ancestors owned slaves. Armyrifle 21:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Parking tickets at Harvard

During the exploratory phase of his candidacy, Obama paid off $375 worth of parking tickets and late fees that he incurred during law school at Harvard. [22]

• Not notable. Pardon my brevity, but give me a break. Italiavivi 17:32, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable But fun on the talk page! Mykll42 19:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not Notable I don't see this as much of an issue. Who cares?--C.Logan 20:18, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Considering HLS's hefty tuition costs (today at $110,000 for three years), I think Senator Obama's action was rather admirable. 128.103.14.115 01:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Funny stuff, but not notable. --Ubiq 02:54, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Silly. Ogeez 03:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Trivial matter. - PoliticalJunkie 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable - If $375 was not the total cost, but rather a plea deal??? I smell conspiracy theory... any takers :) - ok... Not Notable - Eisenmond 21:27, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• Not notable Yet again.. Anything remotely interesting regarding a candidate is front page news. --Bobblehead 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
• unnotable take this to fox news. --– Emperor Walter Humala · ^{( talk? · help! )} 05:23, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
• Notable in the context of things that he's doing to clear his name. (It's only not notable if the incident is isolated. However, Obama has also done other things to clear his name, such as by investing in mutual funds and money market accounts, not individual stocks, after he was accused of buying stocks then proposing funding that would benefit those stocks).71.212.111.238 23:14, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

He was never accused of buying stocks and then proposing fundng that would benefit those stocks. There are no allegations of illegality or ethics violations. Mykll42 23:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1984

Should we do a write-up on the "1984" ad produced by the Obama campaign? That must be the awesomest political ad ever. Ogeez 14:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

• Last I looked, the Obama campaign says they didn't produce it. Has something changed this morning? Anyway, I think it would fit better at Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

No, they definitely didn't produce it. It should go in the campaign article, not Obama's biography. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 15:03, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

If the Obama campaign didn't produce it, and it's just some guy's YouTube piece, I'd say placing it in his article (even his "campaign article") violates Undue Weight. Italiavivi 01:57, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's gotten a LOT of coverage in the past 2 weeks. Barack talked about it last night on Larry King. Hillary even responded to it personally today. I think it's notable enough to go in the campaign article. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 02:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So, does it warrant its own article, then? Or identical mentions at both Obama's and Hillary's articles? Italiavivi 21:33, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's important to place these things in perspective. I am a reasonably informed person, and first heard of the youtube ad on this talk page a few days ago. And I first saw it mentioned in the media today. At most this probably deserves one line in the campaign article.--Pharos 02:18, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Consensus seems to be (and I agree) that if this is included at all, it be in the separate presidential election article, so I am removing it from the main article where it was placed today. Tvoz | talk 06:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Making Obama - The Media Spin of "Mis-information"

Let's get the facts straight about Mr. Obama. He is a Freshman Senator, not a Junior Senator as you have clearly written, with hyper-text, in the first sentence of your facts paragraph. Do not make this man out for more than he is, he has next to zero national political experience yet all you people want is to make him President. Two years and two months, please he hasn't even been in office a full term, nor has he even run a state, let alone the United States. Why is it too, that the media does not talk about his Islamic up-bringing or is that to sensitive. I'm sure the Obamaites will whip-up some sort of spin to keep selling a poor bill of goods, but I wouldn't expect anything less.Chrispb-72 18:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• Um. Every state that does not have a vacancy has a Senior Senator and a Junior Senator. The one who has been there the longest is Senior. The other one is Junior. That's all there is to it. You can be a Jr Senator and have been in the Senate for decades (see, for example, John Kerry and John McCain, both Jr Senators with more than 20 years service); and you can be a Sr Senator and in your very first term (Dianne Feinstein became Senator after a special election to fill a vacancy and took office on Nov. 10, 1992; Barbara Boxer was elected to a full term the same day, but didn't take office until the following January.) As far as his "Islamic up-bringing", well, he didn't have one. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:05, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

• He most certainly DID have an islamic upbringing. In Indonesia he was registered as a "Muslim" in two of his Islamic schools, prayed regularly in mosques and every one of his names is Arabic. Not only "Hussein", but "Obama" and "Barak" are also known Arabic names. --The preceding unsigned comment was made by 68.161.101.218

• • That's nothing. I hear the government is using Arabic numerals now. Eugenitor 17:38, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

• Funny Eugenitor. It's all a lot of laughs until you have a president who sympathizes with America's Muslim terrorist enemies. --The preceding unsigned comment was made by 68.161.101.218

He actually went to a secular school. The Fox News and Insight Magazine reports were debunked and FNC admitted their mistake. Not that it actually matters what his religion is. --Ubiq 05:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

"The Fox News and Insight Magazine reports were debunked and FNC admitted their mistake." -I believe the claim here is that he was REGISTERED as a muslim in two of his elementary schools, regardless of the nature of the school itself. Has this claim been debunked and if so please cite a source.129.98.225.131 15:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not cite your source? You're the one making the claim. --Ubiq 22:29, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, it wouldn't matter much what he was registered (and I still dispute this) as an elementary school student. He affiliates with the United Church of Christ as an adult. That's a bit more recent don't you think? --Ubiq 22:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is more recent, but it is also closer to his policitical career which might make his current affiliation with the Christian religion suspect as a means to cover up his alleged Muslim background as polls show that would hurt him greatly in his political life. 68.161.55.96 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

This statement is the biggest load of POV-pushing spinster crap I've read in ages. You're off your rocker if you think phrases like "his current affiliation with the Christian religion is suspect" will appear in this article. There is no "his current affiliation with the Christian religion" (laughable weasel wording) -- he is Christian, the end. Italiavivi 21:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it will not appear because you and the rest of the Obama crew fascists won't allow anything in the article that doesn't scream "Obama in '08". This article is nothing more than a campaigning tool, anything else is deleted immediately.

I will do some research for you this weekend and have a source for you about his registration as an elementary school student this coming Monday.68.161.55.96 18:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It's me from the last comment on another computer Here is the source I promised: The following is a link to a Los Angeles Times story dated March 15, 2007. The LA Times is a known pro-Obama newspaper. Here's the article: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story

Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."

Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times

"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007

Your representation of that article is disingenuous at best. Every source I'm reading in that article affirms what's already known, and no one in the article alleges that Obama was "a practicing Muslim." Quite contrary: The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends. I'm reverting your POV-pushing characterization, and would note that anything else mentioned in the LA Times article you link has already been covered in the article. Italiavivi 22:16, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with these points, also concur with Bbatsell on edit summary - the post was an interpretation not supported by the source or by this talk page discussion as claimed. Tvoz |talk 22:55, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, you Obama campaigners are quite a team. Quite a team indeed. If anyone had any doubt that Obama doesn't have a full time staff monitering this article. All doubt should be erased now. What a joke -I challenge ANYONE HERE to read this LA Times article and tell me I'm misrepresenting it. Either these people are stupid or fascits. You choose. Read it and then see if you think these fascists are correct when they say that "Everything" in the article is already covered on the wiki page. If this we'ren't such as scandal it would be a laugh. -but of course I assume good faith, as you guys do too, reverting cited sources in not time flat! Unbeleivable.

You misrepresented the article as having called Obama a "practicing Muslim," the very antithesis of what Obama's childhood friends describe in the L.A. Times piece. This has nothing to do with support for/opposition to Sen. Obama, and everything to do with your distortion, not to mention your now-obvious political agenda. Also, cease your personal attacks (I'm a "fascit"?). Italiavivi 23:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The origin of Obama's first name is presumably...

...the Islamic/Sufi word "Barakah," which roughly means (according to the article) "spiritual wisdom and blessing transmitted from God," "divine presence," "grace," "charisma," etc. Since his father was a Muslim this makes sense, that his first name is an Arabic word/Muslim concept. Do you all think that this warrants a mention in the article? Mr. Obama is quite well known for his personal "charisma," I believe, so it's interesting that this is sort-of what his first name means. --WassermannNYC 01:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

His father was an atheist, not a Muslim. Italiavivi 21:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No more than the mention of the derivation of anyone else's first name belongs in their article (although where an individual has chosen their own name, I suppose it would make sense.)Shsilver 03:04, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, WassermannNYC, the meaning of his name is mentioned in the article here, and has been there for a long time. Tvoz | talk 03:54, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Also, I believe his father was actually an atheist. --Ubiq 05:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes but his father came from a Muslim background, yes? --WassermannNYC 10:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Tell me how and why it is relevant. I come from a Christian background but I am not Christian. In an article about me, why would the mention of Christianity be important? It seems an emphasis on what I've done it my life might be what you'd focus on writing about. At the moment, your suggestions smell of POV pushing (attempting to label or affiliate him with being Muslim when he clearly is not). --Ubiq 21:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

While his name may be related to baruch, it's related by Semitic etymology, rather than by a direct connection: it's like the way in which Salam Pax's name is related to shalom. Regardless of whether his father was atheist or not, his name

does seem to have its roots in the Arabic barakah. --Saforrest 03:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

No doubt true, Saforrest. We have "baruch" in the article, because it was a point that Obama made regarding his name. Tvoz | talk 04:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

HELLO! Hebrew and Arabic are closely related (both Semitic languages). "Baruch" and "Barakah" are obviously closely related terms, as both mean roughly "blessing" (and similar terms: grace, charisma, divine favor/presence, etc). Seeing as his father came from a Muslim background (and thus likely had at least some familiarity with Arabic), there's no doubt the root of Obama's name is from the Arabic word Barakah [NOTE: sometiems spelled differently], and NOT from the Hebrew word "Baruch" because his father was likely to have MUCH more familiarity with Arabic rather than Hebrew. Also, didn't Obama briefly study at a Muslim school in Indonesia? There we would no doubt have been learning ARABIC, and not Hebrew. --WassermannNYC 10:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

his name is closer to barakah than baruch, and i've heard thats where his name came from.--Lerdthenerd 10:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

"blessing" in Hebrew is b^erakhah. barukh is "blessed". - NYC JD (interrogatories) 11:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

WassermannNYC: (1) I'm curious how wherever Barack Obama Junior went to school has any relevance to the name he was given when he was born, or did you have another reason to insert that in this conversation? (2) Since he is Junior, then I guess we're talking about his grandparents' choice of name for his father, aren't we, so whatever familiarity his father had with Arabic is rather irrelevant, seeing as the name was given to him at his birth - am I wrong? and (3) Obviously the name derives from Arabic - as we say, it's an East African name and there's not much chance that Hebrew was known in the village of Nyanza province where B.O. Senior was born. The article says: Speaking to an elderly Jewish audience during his 2004 campaign for U.S. Senate, Obama linked the linguistic roots of his East African first name Barack to the Hebrew word baruch, meaning "blessed." The Senator made a point, linking the linguistic roots to the Hebrew word baruch (barukh) which apparently you agree with as it is patently true and Linguistics 101. It appears to me that he was trying to create some common ground of understanding with his audience, not erroneously claim that his name was actually from Hebrew. So am I missing a point about the article that you're trying to make? Tvoz | talk 18:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm concerned about the direction this article is taking. My inclusion of the Arabic spelling of Obama's name has come under a lot of fire that I find hard to understand. It occurs to me that the reason, perhaps, is that the powers that be in this article's editing are worried about the political consequences of including the name. I'm sure it's obvious why that worries me. I want to make it clear that this is not a political statement. I'm not especially political myself, and haven't looked too much into the 2008 election. At the same time, it's important to provide information to those seeking it. We have a responsibility to the readership to provide such information. If my content were false or irrelevant, it would make sense to remove it -- but it isn't. He is and American of African lineage, yes, but his name is, without question, of Arabic origin. I can attest to a potential reader's interest in the Arabic spelling because I myself was interested in it when I saw the article. When I ran across the article, I noticed that the Arabic spelling was missing, found it, and added it. I realize that there's not much I can do to keep the Arabic script in the article if people with much more time than I are constantly watching over it. I have neither the ability nor the interest in engaging in such an edit war. I'm asking that those who object to its inclusion consider their own reasons in light of the mission of Wikipedia. If they would only do this, I have no doubt that they would see why my contribution deserves mention in the article as it was. It's not political, and it's not irrelevant. I understand the wish to protect the article on the part of Obama's supporters, but it's downright irresponsible to withhold relevant information, regardless of what you assume the political consequences might be. Mikehoffman 00:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

My opinion is we should only be giving names in other writing systems for people who have actually used their names in those writing systems.--Pharos 00:29, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Unless that's a Wikipedia rule, it seems to me that we ought to err on the side of more information rather than less. Sure, it doesn't make sense to include names in other writing systems randomly, but my feeling is that linguistic origin is as good of a reason as the person's usage of another system. Mikehoffman 01:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Then you would be adding the Greek spelling for Michael Dukakis and Spiro Agnew as well? They were the sons of Greeks, like Obama is the son of a Kenyan, of the Luo ethnicity (note: not an Arab). It would be no more appropriate on those articles than it is on this one. And please don't make assumptions about the motivations of people who edit this article regularly, some of whom also edit Hillary Rodham Clinton, John Edwards, George W. Bush, Nelson Rockefeller, and occasionally George Washington, among many others. Your supposition that not including the Arabic spelling here is politically motivated is wrong, and unsupported. As for not wanting to edit war, that's good to hear, but the repeated reversions today come perilously close. Tvoz | talk 02:49, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the belittling and inappropriate response, in blatant violation of Wikipedia guidelines -- though I admit I was afraid for a few lines there that your contribution was going to become constructive. As far as the "Michael Dukakis" defense -- I see no reason not to include those types of things. Our task is to provide information. Names are culturally relevant. Sure, there might not always be a dire need for alternate writing systems' spelling, but there's no harm done in including them, and there will often be enough interest in these spellings to say that including them will really improve the articles.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mikehoffman (talk • contribs).

Mike, my intention was not to belittle, and I apologize if it came across that way to you. However, I stand by the substance of my comment, and do not see how it was in any way inappropriate. (1) You said It occurs to me that the reason, perhaps, is that the powers that be in this article's editing are worried about the political consequences of including the name. and you said I understand the wish to protect the article on the part of Obama's supporters, but it's downright irresponsible to withhold relevant information, regardless of what you assume the political consequences might be.. Those comments impugn the motivation of the regular editors here. The regular editors here - and I am not talking about disruptive editors, I am talking about the numerous sincere, hard-working editors who have worked on this article - do not agree on everything, not by a long shot. Read this talk page and the archives and you'll see what I mean. But for the most part we reach consensus on the direction of the article - some do by surveying the group, others do it by attempting to persuade, but we don't edit with an agenda as you suggested. I pointed out to you the variety of articles that are edited by some of the regulars here, to indicate that any of us could just as easily be accused of being an Edwards or a Clinton supporter as an Obama supporter. (And the Rockefller, Bush, and Washington examples were not sarcastic - I for one have worked on all three.) (2) I think it would be odd to include the Greek spelling of Dukakis, and to me there is no difference between Dukakis and Obama on this. It wasn't a "defense", it was an observation. Our task is indeed to include information, but we make decisions all the time about which information to include. (3) The fact is that Barack Obama the man is not, to the best of our knowledge, of Arabic descent. So the fact that his name derives from Arabic is really irrelevant. (4) If my "editing war" comment was to you somehow out of line, I'm sorry, but again say that I'm glad that you don't want to edit war, because it would not be helpful. But reverting to your text three times in a day does come close. Finally, (5) As for whether any harm is done in including irrelevant information such as this, I'm sure you know that this article is a target for all kinds of vandalism, much of which has centered on Obama's supposed, but incorrect, Arab and/or Muslim background, ranging from the "Osamas" to the "madrassahs" and more. Adding his name in Arabic, since he is not of Arabic descent, might be giving mis-information, no matter how well-intentioned you are in suggesting it. So, since we try to proceed on this article by consensus, it appears you don't at present have it, since a few editors have removed your addition. This is not a shy bunch - if others disagree, I am sure we'll hear from them. Meanwhile, I think it best to leave the article as it is and discuss. Tvoz | talk 19:50, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

If your initial response wasn't intentionally belittling, then it was poorly-proofread. But point taken. As you can see, I haven't been adding the text back to the article, and it was never my intention to keep it there by force. That would be both irresponsible and uneffective, given the apparent convictions of those who moderate the article's content. I have every intention of addressing this omission through legitimate channels (i.e. this talk page), and as such, I expect that other editors will give my position the attention it deserves. I'd like to reiterate that I am NOT suggesting that the Arabic spelling belongs on the page because of his heritage. I'm well aware that there's little reason to believe that there is even a drop of Arab blood in Obama's veins. The name, however, is Arabic. It does not follow from Obama's non-Arab heritage that there is no reason to include the spelling of his name in the language from which it originates. We include the IPA pronunciation because the pronunciation might not be obvious to some readers. We don't include that information for every name. It seems to me that the same reasoning ought to apply to the spelling of names in their original languages. Neither necessarily has anything to do with the actual heritage of the individual, but each deserves mention. I'm more than willing to listen to the objections raised by those who oppose the Arabic text's inclusion. I would ask, though, that you would engage me (and, really, the topic) in a constructive way. Pharos, for instance, made his point in an appropriate fashion, and in doing so, he positively contributed to the conversation. Don't assume that new editors are any less intelligent or useful in the Wikipedia process than you are. Mikehoffman 21:04, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Hm. How do you spell "Barack" or "Hussein" in Luo? That's the only "original language" that would be relevant here, since Obama is neither Arabic nor has he (to my knowledge) any Arabic ancestry. We generally don't delve into the etymology of people's given names in articles about them; an article about me wouldn't need to mention that Joshua is יְהוֹשֻׁע in Hebrew. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 00:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC) ַ

Hi, this is Halfsense. On the subject of spelling, don't forget that lots of people in the American heartland aren't use to a single 'r', so they write it as Barrack. Matter of fact, it even found its way into Wikipedia. I found some, will fix now. ALEX

There is an inherent contradiction in asserting the reason the name was removed was for political reasons, then asserting its insertion would not be of political relevance. There is no reason to include the Arabic spelling of the name. He is not Arab, he is not Muslim, he does not write his name in Arabic, he's not even from an Arabic country. There is as much reason to add the Arabic spelling of his name as there is to add the Greek, Japanese, Chinese, or Swahili. Just because the name originates from Arabic (which, you've not prevented any evidence to suggest that was indeed its origin, as I'd hesitate to wonder if it actually derived from names from another culture), does not mean it should be written in such. Any more than you should write my own name, Keith, in old English. Nor would you write my mother's name in Hebrew, or any number of Americans' names in the corresponding language of that name's origin. If you wish to, however, create an article for the -name- Barack and Obama, and not the -person-, in some or another context, feel free. Barack Obama is an American, writes his name in English, the official standard language of America. I don't have anything against Arabic. I do have something against people inserting a politically charged and illogically, unreasonably placed line in a political leader's article. AltonBrownFTW 06:30, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

This will be my last contribution to this discussion, as my participation is clearly not yielding anything. I have a lot of respect for the Wikipedia project, but this experience has been disheartening. It's shown me, above all else, that Wikipedia is dominated by coders, not intellectuals, and in that spirit, has little regard for intellectual freedom. That is disappointing, and like I said, this will be my last post. I felt that I should at least defend myself against the last post, though even a marginally careful reading of any of my prior posts would discredit the personal attacks launched in the previous poster's comment. The Arabic text was, in no way, politically charged, and I saw no reason why it should have been seen as such. My remark regarding the objection to it on political lines had to do with the sentiments that clearly dominate the editing of this article. My inclusion was not political, but the ideologues that censor this article no doubt felt that the mention of the origin of Obama's first and middle names could be harmful to the campaign. That strikes me as more than a bit racist, but that's not my business. The rest of the attacks offered in the post are almost verbatim repetitions of those offered by others who chose to read my posts only superficially, so if you're interested in my response to them, check the other posts. I'm confident that this post, too will be met with the same half-attention and will result in perhaps even more angry responses through the walls of the posters' mothers' basements. Of course, you should feel free to give these responses, but it's only fair that you know that I won't see them. Ideology has triumphed over intellectual freedom, so those of you who had hoped to shield Wikipedia readers from this information should be proud -- you've won. Again, feel free to gloat, complain, and dismiss to your heart's desire. I won't be reading this discussion page any more, but I'm sure your online girlfriend will be very impressed by your bravado! Mikehoffman 17:38, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't live in a basement. Are you saying that new users shouldn't even give Wikipedia a whirl? I made some fixes on Barack Obama spellings yesterday. Maybe it's not much, but someone's gotta start somewhere! Hope you'll reconsider leaving. There's room for everyone in this world. ALEX —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Halfsense (talk • contribs) 19:35, 1 April 2007 (UTC).

There is also the Hebrew word "Berakhah" which is of course very similar to both "Barakah" (Arabic) and "Baruch" (Hebrew). --172.132.140.158 08:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Precisely. That, added to the fact that Hebrew and Arabic are languages so deeply tied, in -so- many ways, is why I think that including the Arabic of his name, on this page, is trivial and irrelevant to him, better belonging to a page that discusses this very -complex- subject.AltonBrownFTW 17:47, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relentless Censorship of Anything that Would Hurt Obama

Why is it that I added something to this article about Barack Obama's opposition to a bill protecting infant victims of botched abortions and it was deleted by another user MINUTES later? Can somebody explain why CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM of Barack Obama is deleted with no explanation? Also, there is NOTHING negative about him in the whole article. Compare that to any article about a REPUBLICAN Presidential candidate and you will see what I mean. But for now, I will re-add the article from world net daily and hope that none of the censors (obama supporters/staffers) don't delete for fear it will take away from the positiveness of this fluff piece.

Has anyone else noticed how any mention of anything controversial regarding Obama does not survive in this article. It appears to be a tool for the Obama '08 campaign and they are stomping out all opposition in fascistic style. Can someone please report what's been going on here to the wikipedia administrators.

Propaganda placed into an article, any article, for the explicit purpose of hurting the candidate, especially when that material is not just controversial but unfounded, and further, during an election year is... Not proper. If there are articles you feel are being similarly treated, then you should patrol them similarly. Nothing is stopping you, so long as you can provide a legitimate case. AltonBrownFTW 21:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Please can we put these type of distorting type selective facts somewhere else? Most congressional bills are complex. Many times bills are voted up or down many times. I can always pull apart some bill and say, see, republicans didn't vote for xxx (ignoring that they voted against it for another valid reason). This type of tactic is NOT encyclopedic, and should be rejected on pages of candidates for all parties. Augustz 00:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That's not correct. Just because something is "complicated" does not mean it is exluded from a a wikipedia entery. Try again. But yes, this wiki is joke, little more than a propaganda tool at this point. Ernham 02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "not easily pegged to typical U.S. categories of the left or right"?

Hi. While I am inclined to support Obama (we're both left-handed smokers), my BS detector lights up a little after reading this. In the Political Image section it describes him as being neither lefty nor righty. He's been against the Iraq war since day one (a position typically reserved for the extremes on both sides - like Ron Paul or Denis Kucinich), is pro-choice and advocates universal healthcare. In 2007 America this combination puts you on the left. Not neccessarily far from the center, but absolutely NOT on the right half of the scale. If there are some lesser known positions that move him to the right, you really ought to mention them. I'd have to unfortunately agree with the swiftboaters above who speculate that this page has been 'caputured' by members of his campaign. 24.98.251.37 23:03, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, throughout the article, it is clear where his political allegiances lie. The section you're referring to is specifically referring to his "image", and cites numerous reliable sources that allude to the bipartisanship he has displayed throughout his career, and does not say that his beliefs are anywhere other than on the liberal side of the American political spectrum. I agree that we can probably make that more clear in the text. (Also, it isn't very nice to make the claim that you did at the end, as it's entirely untrue.) —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 23:21, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

The article clearly states on numerous occasions that he's a Democrat. The line you're referring to is more of a comment on his insistence to treat each political issue individually, instead of adhering to party lines for the sake of party/political reasons. Did you not read the rest of the section? It has multiple criticisms, etc. --Ubiq 23:26, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I would like to know just why he is so popular in the democratic party. How does someone so young and with so little experience get seen as such a visionary? Everything I have read about his politics leads me believe he is moderate democrat ideologically close to both Clintons. I do not get any notion that he is suggesting anything particularly new. Yet there is all the buz around him versus any other Democratic Senator? If anyone has some ideas about this I would very much like to see them discussed here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Custodiet ipsos custodes (talk • contribs).

Because the democrats are race hucksters at every turn. Sadly, blacks tend to overwhelmingly vote democrat anyway, so he is really more bluster than anything.Ernham 01:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It is not our place to speculate. We are only here to write the article about him. All we can do is cite what reputable sources have said about him. Anything else would fall under WP:NOR. Please remember that this is not the place to discuss Barak, but the place to discuss the article about Barak. --StuffOfInterest 12:43, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Then whose place is it to speculate???? Hello? The point of the discussion page is go places and talk about things that wont make it on the main page. (Again I am not advocating putting original research on the main page.) One could though explain with sources his popularity. If it can be done this way it is essential to an article about him. In the future when people look back at him in history they will be wondering why he was so popular. This is a very important point. History is not just dry facts but an explanation of them to provide coherence to those facts. If this is not the place where is the place??? Custodiet ipsos custodes 19:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I believe StuffOfInterest is talking about WP:TALK where it says the talk page is to only discuss improving the article. So, if you want to discuss why he's popular, perhaps you should head over to one of the discussion boards dedicated to talking politics. However, if you'd like to add why he is popular to this article, I'd suggest you find a reliable source that explains that. One thing I've noticed is that requesting others to look up information for you tends to be ignored. --Bobblehead 20:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move article to Barack Hussein Obama

I think this article should be moved to Barack Hussein Obama Bluppiblu 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The naming conventions say otherwise. · j e r s y k o talk · 23:03, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The "ever-present Obama" article.

I've been trying to word this tidbit in a fair manner, but the more I look at its source (a blog post from RealClearPolitics [23]), the more I have a problem with its reliability. The author, Nathan Gonzales, paraphrases all of Sen. Obama's responses to his questions.

When I asked the Obama campaign about those votes, they explained that in some cases, the Senator was uncomfortable with only certain parts of the bill, while in other cases, the bills were attempts by Republicans simply to score points.

I had mistakenly placed the phrases "uncomfortable with only certain parts of the bill" and "attempts by Republicans to score points" within quotation marks, assuming them to have been Sen. Obama's responses, but now realize that Mr. Gonzales has provided no directly quoted responses from Sen. Obama in his blog post. Due to its origin (a conservative blog), and the fact that it provides none of Sen. Obama's actual responses, I question its reliability as a source for this article. In previous Talk discussion, there was a fairly solid consensus (including from anti-Obama-POV editors) that Obama's past "present" votes were neither extraordinary nor notable. Should this become an issue covered by reliable sources, we can re-visit it later. Italiavivi 22:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. However, with the full context it sounds reasonably accurate, though I don't think it is super notable, many politicians do this, both the gotcha side and the avoiding the vote side. Augustz 01:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure focusing on the abortion bills represents undue weight as both sides were represented in the paragraph. Undue weight doesn't necessarily mean focusing on one topic, but rather focusing unnecessarily on one viewpoint or in excess of what the topic is worth. This is particularly true when the only "present" votes that are really drawing attention is his votes on the pro-life bills. That being said, I'm not strictly opposed to the "present" issue being removed as the only source that's calling the present votes an issue is Gonzales's op-ed piece. However, his votes against the partial birth and the "Born alive" bills (either as a "no" or a "present") being an issue has been mentioned in a number of reliable sources.[24][25] So I don't see a reason why those votes can't be included in a sparsely covered state legislature section. --Bobblehead 01:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Obama WAS Registered "Muslim" in his Schools and attended mosques

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story

Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."

Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times

"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007

Obama's statements in this article and in several public forums contradict what these sources say and that should be noted in the article. If the Obama supporters don't think there is anything wrong with having been registered as a Muslim, they should have no problem with this fact being in the article and its NPOV becaue having been is Muslim is not a bad thing, but the facts are the facts.

I hope we can dicuss this civilly and hopefully find a sentence that represents accurately this issue and that everyone can agree on. But consistently undoing my attempts is not the way to accomplish this and violates wikipedia's 3 undo edit rule. Rebyid 00:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Please actually read the article. 'The childhood friends say Obama sometimes went to Friday prayers at the local mosque. "We prayed but not really seriously, just following actions done by older people in the mosque. But as kids, we loved to meet our friends and went to the mosque together and played," said Zulfin Adi, who describes himself as among Obama's closest childhood friends.' If you are going to quote items 40 years old subject to a lot of mixed evidence including in the article itself, why not quote the following "Instead of using his fists, Obama gained respect — and friends — by using his imposing stature to protect weaker children against the strong, Dharmawan said." Obviously I think neither of these types of things positive or negative belong in the article. Augustz 01:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Are my quotes from the article not accurate? Are you saying he was NOT registered as a Muslim in both of his elementary schools?! This went uncontradicted in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rebyid (talk • contribs).

It's probably worth noting here that under Indonesian law, everyone is forced to register as a member of one of a half-dozen set religions. "Non-religious" is definitely not an option. The relevant quote from the article is "He was registered as a Muslim because his father, Lolo Soetoro, was Muslim."--Pharos 02:54, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

That is correct.Tvoz |talk 03:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article excessively long?

This article is over 100k long, which seems to indicate that the creation of a number of child articles are in order here. The Senate career section is almost 30k in length on it's own and could be easily copied and pasted into a Senate career of Barack Obama article and then expanded/reformatted into a quality article. I could even see the senate campaign moved off to the career article with a short6 summary of the sections left here hitting the high points of the election and his senate career. The cultural and political image section is also ripe for being made into a summary for a child article. The political advocacy section and the presidential election section seem to be excessively long for summaries of another article. I know there isn't a chance in heck of getting this article down to 32k without leaving a pile of drek behind, but it should be doable to reduce the length down to a more acceptable and quality 60k with a proper application of WP:SS. What does everyone else think? --Bobblehead 02:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)