Talk:Chrono Cross

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Chrono Cross is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.

Article Milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 5, 2005	Peer review	Reviewed
August 8, 2006	Good article nominee	Listed
August 21, 2006	Featured article candidate	Promoted
Current Status: Featured article

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ZeaLitY (talk)

[edit] Edits

I'm not sure who made the edits to the top paragraph... But I reverted them. They were terrible. Radical Dreams is a sort of sequel to Chrono Trigger. That, among other things... Had to be fixed. --Htmlism 05:03, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Miguel

I read an interesting theory, claiming that Miguel is Crono. Read and tell me what you think.

http://boards.gamefaqs.com/gfaqs/genmessage.php?board=24058&topic=18604082

Seems widespread enough for a mention. Andre (talk) 03:14, Jan 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] World Map

The World Map differences in Trigger were radical due to the vast amounts of time that passed in between them, the map in Cross is of Parallel worlds in the same time frame, so it is to be expected that their landmass geography is identical.

[edit] Characters

Trigger has a complete Character set on Wikipedia, I recommend we work on the same for Cross. I'll get info to you all as soon as I have a base of operations set up.Guardian of Light 13:15, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Is anyone interested in this by the way?Guardian of Light 14:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I've created/expanded a few of the main characters (Serge (Chrono Cross), Kid (Chrono Cross), Lynx (Chrono Cross), Harle, Guile, and Luccia). I don't think it's really necessary for each character to have his/her own article, pretty much just because some of the characters (i.e. Funguy, Turnip, Pierre, etc.) are completely under-developed. The really only "important characters" in CC, IMO, are Serge, Kid, Lynx, and Harle. I only created a Guile article because he is so popular among fans with all the Guile=Magus theories around, and the Luccia article already existed. I can see potential articles for Leena, Glenn, Karsh, and maybe a few other characters since they are actually developed. I think perhaps a List of Chrono Cross characters is the best solution. — WARPEDmirror 16:19, 3 September 2005 (UTC)

I can appreciate that. Still, now that I've put around 15+ hours in on this I don't want to see it wasted. I'll finish and then try it out. If it turns out not good, I'll clean up personally, that I promise. Guardian of Light 21:45, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

I've been working on a few of the characters, I believe that I finished Norris recently. I don't have all the information on the characters (still digging up old memory cards for my PS1), so any help would be appreciated. It would be nice if we could have a complete list of all the characters, just for the bragging rights. UzerZero 14:04, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Hey guys, I went ahead and merged all articles except for Harle, Kid, Serge, and Lynx. It's a good character project, and hopefully the list can be expanded to such a point that we can split it by innate eventually. Deckiller 04:24, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Really a sequel? Section

I'm not totally sure this is fit to stay; as my additions reveal, only a loud few are responsible for the "generally accepted notion" that Chrono Cross is not a fit sequel. Having been a Chrono Trigger fanboy myself, and having embraced Chrono Cross, dissected the plots of both games without relent (consult by Chronology on the Compendium or Gamefaqs), and worked with the entire script of Chrono Cross to organize it for casual viewing, the thought of it being anything less than an excellent sequel is foreign to me. However, this is personal opinion, but I believe the fanboyism responsible for that perception of poor quality is simply extremism and might not justify the better part of the second half of this entry. The typist who composed it was a bit ill-qualified and lacked a few tidbits of knowledge concerning the series itself.

--Zeality 22:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

The entire section is a bit... odd, really. To be blunt, it's a sequel if the producers say it is. The reference to GamePro's interview with Tanaka is the only bit of the section that seems to have any real informative weight at all, and it's mentioned only in passing, and without a direct link. And the whole thing comes across as a bit schizophrenic. The entire passage could probably be boiled down to one or two sentences without losing the gist, and doing so would probably reduce the NPOVishness of it all.... – Seancdaug 01:53, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

I'll try and tackle it dispassionately, then. --Zeality 04:10, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Nonexistent" Plot Holes?

I was just wondering what the basis was for declaring the position of plotholes within the game as "non-existent". A list of proposed plot holes and their "solutions" would be appreciated. King Zeal 23:19, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

The claims are mostly totally insubstantiated, and the arguments retracted. It's more of a general claim among Cross haters that the game is "full of holes," and this fact is also assumed because the game deals with dimensional and temporal travel. There are hardly specific instances named; I make a point when arguing to call for evidence, and most is simply a simple misunderstanding. There are two "holes" I know of:

Moons are inconsistent with the orphanage fire scenery outside Lucca's house (Chrono'99)
According to a theory on the Compendium as part of its definition and analysis of the rules (stated and non) of time travel, difficulties arise concerning whether Schala's pendant could be used by Kid (a rule on the Compendium states it should disappear; something to that effect)

And the latter plot hole deals entirely with fan analysis and decryption. If you can find some other examples cited by disgruntled players, it would be appreciated, but largely in my experiences the claims of widespread, proliferated plot holes are quickly retracted as the declarer retreats soon after. --Zeality 23:56, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Those are different from the plotholes I've heard (or "formed" myself). I agree that those cases might not be examples of plotholes within the story, but I don't agree that the story lacks them altogether. I wouldn't mind discussing them at length with someone who knows the plot through and through, though. King Zeal 00:42, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The mystery stone face

Who is the face on the very bottom of reptilian city in Chrono Cross? Azala perhaps? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by ParkerPathWalker (talk • contribs) 09:10, 2005 November 8.

[edit] Guile

Removed:
* Guile - None ~~(was going to be Magus, Schala's brother, but his backstory was removed)~~
Can this be confirmed? —Frungi 06:43, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[1] --Zeality 19:07, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gameplay section?

This article needs a Gameplay section. Reading it, one would have no idea what the game itself is like (battles, Elements, etc.), only what happens in the game’s story. I’d do it myself, but trust me, you don’t want me writing a section. —Frungi 06:54, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merges, etc.

I think that a lot of the playable characters need to be merged into lists. Perhaps a list for each innate color, or a list for all the stub character pages. Characters like Serge, Lynx, and maybe Kid can have their own articles, but I don't know if Leah and Viper should. Basically, I'm suggesting a merge along the lines of Xenosaga (series) Deckiller 03:53, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. A case can be made that major characters like Serge, Kid, and Lynx deserve their own entries, but the rest should be stuck, as-is, in a list. Ideally, I'd prefer a single list for all characters, but I expect that will probably be too long, so splitting them by color seems as reasonable as anything else. – Seancdaug 03:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and merge them on January 21, 2006 if nobody objects. Deckiller 18:33, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll be WP:BOLD and start the merge now. Deckiller 02:51, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

As a side note, I'm going to start by putting all characters in one article (except for Lynx, Serge, Kid). That way, if a split is needed, it can be done so at a later date. Deckiller 02:55, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

All merged. The list may need some format tweaks. I merged all articles and redirected all except for Serge, Kid, Lynx, and Harle. Deckiller 04:20, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "Plot", paragraph 4

I only wish that I monitored this article more often to bring this up sooner. Anyway, 69.178.99.74 removed the paragraph discussing the small number of players who were dissatisified with Chrono Cross, and why, stating it did not comply with NPOV. While this paragraph is slightly toned towards those who dislike Chrono Cross, the paragraph includes enough statements to counterbalance the criticism. Further, all of the information, to my knowledge, is factual. I am well aware that another reference to fan displeasure exists in the 3rd paragraph from top, but those two statements don't give enough information about the situation, nor do they explain in detail why these conflicts exist. I'm considering placing that paragraph back as it existed before removal, but I want to hear the opinions of others before doing so, since no one else before me decided to.

Vindictive Warrior 07:02, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm guessing P4 was removed due to the excessive rebuttals to criticism; I didn't notice it at first. In any case, I'll agree that the paragraph should not be restored in its previous state. Nevertheless, I do believe this article needs more emphasis on the displeasure that this game has created for a small, yet existant group of fans. One or two sentences can't completely explain the reasoning behind the hatred.

Vindictive Warrior 05:54, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree. There are a lot of Chrono Trigger fans out there who were less than fans of Chrono Cross. Though the game received critical acclaim, to ignore those criticisms (or merely pay lip service to them) seem to bias the article. 63.94.97.34 16:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)bcaiko

[edit] Japanese title

The Japanese title is "Chrono Cross," not "クロノ・クロス," which is the Japanese pronunciation of the title. The parenthetical "クロノ・クロス, Kurono Kurosu" should be removed, as it is not the Japanese title.

I beg to differ. In the Japanese article on Chrono Cross, the title is written in full katakana, and the katakana form is used throughout the article. As English is a compulsory subject in modern Japanese education, they could have easily written it in English if they wanted to.

Vindictive Warrior 05:59, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I didn't like this game, and...

I'm kind of at odds with the second paragraph unde the Plot section. It is true that I'm one of the players that criticizes the story, but that same paragraph says that it's mistaken to see the story as being weak and senseless. I really feel the story actually is weak and senseless, but yet I listened hard to all of the game's characters, and talked to everyone everywhere, multiple times over. It also says the plot is sound. What I'm getting at is that the paragraph seems to be defending the game's story, and says that my criticism of it is wrong and that I am (and people like me are) stupid for thinking that. Seriously, aren't there sensible people out there that thinks that this story is nuts? OK, maybe it itsn't senseLESS, but it's definitely weak--in my opinion. I'm not saying that having an intricate plot is a bad thing--in fact, often it is a good thing. I mean, the story of FFVII wasn't too simple, and yet I absolutely loved it, mostly because it was done right. But I really feel that in this case, the story was done poorly, and I don't like this encyclopedia saying that this belief is "mistaken". I take strong objection to this, and to all others who feel that people who don't like this game's story are stupid and/or impatient people that didn't bother to listen to it carefully.

The plot makes sense to me, but I hate the guts of Chrono Cross anyway, mainly because it discards way too many things from Chrono Trigger, such as time-period jumping, well-developed characters (I don't care what others say, 44 characters, majority downright insignificant, was overkill), instantly understandable storyline, a memorable experience, and fangirls screaming for Crono (lol). I will agree that the story is excessively complex for most players, even I needed to read walkthroughs to understand the details. Nevertheless, if the question about plot suitability is brought up, it'll be more of a war involving opinions rather than facts, unless some egregious plot structure error can be uncovered. For now, making our opinions visible and unadulterated on Wikipedia is enough of a challenge.

And what was SquareEnix thinking by killing off CR/CTRP... just because SE can't properly make another Chrono game (IMHO) doesn't mean they should discourage others from reviving the original legend. I also have my doubts as to how harmful the remake would be to official CT sales...a game written in the 16-bit age won't appeal to this generation's philostine gamers, and the project had years to go before completion (which, by then, the PS1 remake could be only found on eBay).

Vindictive Warrior 06:44, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

---

The Plot section uses extremely slanted language and is not appropriate for an encyclopaedia. Please edit for NPOV. Proserpine

[edit] Character images

I believe the character images to the side of the name is a problem for the 8th Fair use criteria policy, which states Fair use images can't be used as decorations. I suggest removing them. -- ReyBrujo 20:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA Push

Now that Chrono Trigger is mostly finished and is currently being peer reviewed before an FA nomination, let's work on Chrono Cross. I'm going to go through the article and do a complete polish up, rewriting some sections and adding new relevant material in. Help is appreciated. This can help with the POV problematic parts. --Zeality 03:04, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gameplay Section

I attempted to explain everything necessary for one who has never played video games to understand, as I hear this is a Featured Article requirement for CVG articles. However, it turned out to be four paragraphs. Is this too wordy? --Zeality 22:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Edit: Nifboy took care of it. --Zeality 05:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Finding citations

Three things aren't cited.

However, there has been no new Chrono title to date, and it is rumored that poor Japanese sales of Chrono Cross are to blame.
Chrono Cross has not been officially released in PAL territories; Square has cited a combination of economic and technical expenses involved with formatting the game as the cause.
The Chrono Break trademark still stands in Japan.

I'll start digging for these right now. Then we can have it peer reviewed. In the meantime, I'm going to polish what I can at Chrono Break and Radical Dreamers to complete the Chrono series drive. --Zeality 05:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Characters auto-accents

The bit on the aut-accent doesn't make much sense. A few years ago, I wrote a program to dump the text from chrono cross. While writting it, I had to devise a way to differenciate the different version of the sale phonemes used in the text, and I came up with the "suffix" and numbers coding. That's the coding used in the article. As a consequence, the left text isn't the original script as written by squaresoft, but merely a dump made by my own tool. While it is true the game use an automatic accentiation system, the exemple given is not encyclopedic by nature and should be removed... yaz0r 10:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I'll take it out. Nice to see you. The Chrono Compendium is still very, very much in debt for the Chrono Cross script... --Zeality 16:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peer review and future

I've learned an incomparable amount of information about building articles at Chrono Trigger, and I'll apply that here to get it ready for a peer review. I'm going to do a general copyedit, reformat all the references, re-add the full story summary, and get some more references overall for the critical reception area. Then I'll submit it for peer review and see what comes next. The Chrono series articles are slowly becoming powerhouses. --Zeality 16:26, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

First point of discussion. What should we do with the character section? --Zeality 02:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I suggest converting it to prose. -- ReyBrujo 04:52, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

There should be no subheadings in the characters section. The main characters should only really have a few words describing their personalities and roles or whatever. Final Fantasy VIII does a pretty good job with its character section (and that's not because I helped write that article :) ) — Deckill e r 05:07, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreement with Deck on this. There's just way too much information about the characters. It should all be in prose with no sub-headings, and only a bit of personality info should be given. Example: "Serge is the silent protagonist. Kid is a feisty girl". Well, obviously use something better than that, but you get the idea. The Final Fantasy VIII example is probably a good one. Check out Final Fantasy X or Final Fantasy VI for more ideas.

The most important bits of character info could comfortably be in the Story section. Regrettably, a lot of things will need to be removed (such as most of the Returning characters section). Also, don't try to focus on more than the main characters and maybe a few supporting characters. There's just too many of the bastards. Maybe mention the core supporting cast (people like Glenn, Viper, Radius and Fargo), but Pierre and Mojoy are pretty much irrelevant as far as the story goes. Leave descriptions of the personalities of the baggage characters to the List of Chrono Cross characters page. Ryu Kaze 00:14, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Exactly ^_^ I spent a couple hours merging that page for that very reason :-) — Deckill e r 00:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Done. I mentioned the more important characters in the resulting paragraph, and tried to maintain a good sense of flow. Aside from a general copyedit, is there anything else the article needs? --Zeality 02:44, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Fan reaction was largely positive"?

That's certainly not been my experience; could somebody cite sources to substantiate this claim? From what I've seen on message boards the fan opinion of Chrono Cross has been largely negatively. 71.203.205.251 14:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

That is because only negative people have impetus to speak out. The game sold 1.5 million copies, and only a handful of people online crop up with complaints. Thousands more come and go at my site, digesting information and reading guides. I will use the Gamespot review to substantiate this, since 3,000 users total have rated it 9.3 out of 10 there. This is just a case of the silent majority who mostly bought and enjoyed the game. --Zeality 14:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

A citation is still needed to show the fan reaction was mostly positive. Claing that "only negative people have impetus to speak out" is a POV assertion, and claiming that everyone who didn't speak out liked the game is even more POV. You're ignoring that there are more than two possible opinions that a player can hold about the game. It's not just a divide between "it's great" and "it's awful"; people can also be neutral, considering the game to be merely average. 71.203.205.251 01:43, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

The numerical poll with 3,000 respondents should take care of that. 9.3 is a fairly high score. --Zeality 01:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] FA

I'll go ahead and put it up for copyedit peer review, and try to do some serious copyediting too. As it stands, the long article queue for Good Articles will probably take about two months to reach Chrono Cross. It's taken nearly a month just for Radical Dreamers (in a normal queue to boot). Though I've sort of sped it along by fixing objections cited on articles further up in the queue, heh... --Zeality 16:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I printed the article out and did some hardcopy editing. A ton of fat has been melted away, along with any remaining excessive weasel or additive words. Now's the time for all good editors to copyedit and fix up any last pressing needs. --Zeality 19:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a problem with reference 31; the title and info isn't showing up down there. I can't figure out what's causing it. --Zeality 19:41, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

After cleaning up things a bit, I'm submitting tomorrow. --Zeality 20:55, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that reference 31 is empty. If you search for it, there are four <ref name="ultimania" />. The first one should have the {{cite web}}, {{cite book}} or whatever. -- ReyBrujo 21:01, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Got it fixed. --Zeality 21:24, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Thanks for following the suggestions I put in the TO DO box, just things I've observed from other Video game FA's.

Along those same lines, I had a question about having 11 Fair use images; is that ok for Video games? because with film articles the limit is about 5. Thanks! Judgesurreal777 04:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

I think so. Normally I wouldn't have added so many, but recently a bunch were implemented in Chrono Trigger while it was nominated for featured article status. --Zeality 12:45, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The recommended limit is fifteen images, actually. Sir Crazyswordsman 03:23, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Excellent article

Terrific article. You guys have clearly and comprehensively explained the game, and almost made me want to go out and buy it. Easily passable for GA status, and well on its way to FA.

A few bits of advice for when you nominate it for FA (and you should):

One sentence in the lead says, "It is the sequel to Chrono Trigger, released in 1995 for the Super Nintendo." Was Chrono Trigger released in 1995, or this game?

I believe you need fair use rationales for the attack menu picture in "Gameplay" and the Japaneses packaging picture in "Plot:Story".

Cut down a bit on images. Featured candidate reviewers are sticklers for the number of fair use images, so decide which ones could go before nominating it. Watch out for User:Angr, who is basically boycotting fair use images in all of Wikipedia.

Great work. -Dark Kubrick 02:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm busy working on Final Fantasy IV and Terra Branford but...

I think I'll shy away from those for a day to give my input and advice on this article. Zealty, you've been doing a great job with it so far. I'm working on prosifying it a bit, and making sure each image has a fair use rationale on it per Wikipedia policy. Sir Crazyswordsman 03:18, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I just checked all the images and made any changes that needed to be made. Sir Crazyswordsman 03:22, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Square Millenium Collection omake?

I know that Square's "Millenium Collection" games came stocked with omake. The image caption states that it released with a sample music CD. Was that all it came with? --Tristam 03:26, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it came with a calendar and clock, too. We'll note those; thanks for reminding. --Zeality 05:03, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I know here in the states one could have got the sampler CD and the clock (along with a poster, I think?) if it was pre-ordered. I still gots my clock and sampler. ;) Reverend Raven 12:44, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congrats, image question

Good idea trimming the images, but I wonder about the justification for the last 5 images in the article. Are there ones that could be found to be more encyclopedic? Like the soundtrack, is that truly needed? Wouldn't a key plot moment be better? Judgesurreal777 21:32, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Images have been fixed. --Zeality 15:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Things to come

Deckiller mentioned getting more out of universe information, and we definitely could use some. There are several interviews with the Chrono Cross team in Ultimania just waiting to be translated. If you, a visitor reading this, are capable of translating and would like to help, e-mail chronocompendium at gmail.com. There's literally a plethora of information between Ultimania and Missing Piece about this game's development totally unknown to English-speaking fans. Help is appreciated. --Zeality 15:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Congratulations All

It's featured! The CVG improvement revolution continues. --Zeality 14:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's make Magus good next! Sir Crazyswordsman 17:19, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism- Score

It's said in the "Criticism" section that fans and critics found the game's score to be unmemorable. My opinion aside (which is that whoever doesn't like the score is deaf), there needs to be a citation for whatever source this was derived from... or it should be cut entirely, because I doubt this is ever the case.

It came from the IGN article. I agree that it's a pretty bogus claim, and was probably the quirk of that author. Is there an ethical basis for removing it? We do cite a lot of reviews, and none of the others mention that flaw, while several do confirm the other flaws (like the weak directing is cited in more than one source, for instance). --Zeality 04:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spoiler Alerts

Could someone please add some spoiler warnings, particularly to the Plot section? The introduction also gives away quite a bit. 71.128.167.230 00:06, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Cameron, 11-4-06

This is an encyclopedia. It gives out information. Voretus/talk 19:02, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chrono Cross was not released in PAL territories...

I am removing the line Chrono Cross was not released in PAL territories due to "a combination of technical and business reasons". It is referenced to a post on a GameSpot union, which is essentially a forum - big no no for reliable sources. The link to the "Q and A" can be found here [2]. Seems like it was copy and pasted or stolen from somewhere else, so I imagine this can be sourced with something else. --- RockMFR 06:56, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An unexpected reference

On the (very remote) chance that there actually is something to this, I have to ask. I just bought, of all things, a ceiling lamp which included light bulbs packed in boxes made from what appears to be recycled cardboard game ad boards, turned inside out. One of them had this Chrono Cross image on it, and I can't quite figure out what the black thing is supposed to be. Any ideas, anyone? Khim1 19:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Wiiieerrd! The casing looks like a Japanese MegaDrive, but the button placement on the controller and system switches (power, reset, and "eject" center switch) make me think its a bootleg Super Famicom. It's an older cartridge system, that's for sure. My guess is the whole thing is a mock-up made in the Asian piracy scene as a way to either promote Chrono Cross or the bootleg system in the picture, if it even exists at all. Things like this usually adorn piracy shops as a way to advertise games or systems without having to pay for official materials, and most of them are made by people who have no idea what in the world they're selling. This would include marketing a game as an entire system. I'd like to hear something more conclusive, but nice find! Nall 22:47, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chrono Poseidon?

I can't find any external mentions of "Chrono Poseidon" (except for a rather elegant watch from KronSegler). That paragraph has to get an external reference pretty soon or it has to be removed, in my opinion. Khim1 04:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

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