Talk:Sicilian language

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(Last name question) My last name is Spateri, and according to this there is/was a word called spatari, and it meant "to impede or disarm someone of his sword (from espadar)". So is that what my last name means?

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Could someone that knows about this (dialect?) language enter some phrases at Common phrases in different languages? I'd be curious to note how different they are from the Italian ones. Dori | Talk 19:26, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

english - italian - sicilian

Sicilian - siciliano - sicilianu
hello: ciao - ciau
good-bye: arrivederci - ni viriemu
please: per favore - pi fauri
thank you: grazie - grazzî
that one: quello - chiddu
how much? quanto - cuantu
English: inglese - nglisi
yes: sì - sì
no: no - no
sorry: scusa - scusassi
I don't understand: 'un capisciu
where's the bathroom?: dov'è il bagno - Unn'e' u vagnu
generic toast: salute - saluti

That's what I got from [1]. So should this article be separate, or should it be merged with Italian?

Dori | Talk 19:42, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

Separate. Why would it be merged with the page of a different language?

If it were the same language, there'd be no reason to have two different articles. Would you please sign your comments? Dori | Talk 02:00, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

1 More Examples
2 Sicilian, Italian
3 Salentino dialect(s)
4 Sicily
5 Recognition
6 Template
7 Bold claim
8 Possible expansion
9 San Fratellan

[edit] More Examples

beware: accura - attenzione
before: antura - poco fa
now: astura - a quest' ora
idiot: babbu - stupido
buffet: buffetta - no exact Italian equivalent
to change: canciari - cambiare
boy/girl: carusu/a - ragazzo/a
neck: cuddu - collo
short: curtu - basso
there: ddà/dabbanna - là
epoch: ebica - epoca
woman: fimmina - donna
more: cchiù - più
smell: ciavuru - odore
he: iddu - lui
they: iddi - loro
finger: iitu - dito
january: innaru - gennaio
to go: iri - andare
to play: iucari - giocare
ugly: ladiu - brutto
beautiful: beddu - bello
left: manca - sinistra
to send: mpostari - imbucare
to peel: munnari - sbucciare
to guess: nzirtari - indovinare
for this: pichissu - per questo
shop: putia - bottega
pocket: sachetta - tasca
donkey: sceccu - asino
to raise: spingiri - alzare
sauce: sucu - salsa
to get up: susirisi - alzarsi
sister: soru - sorella
to enter: trasiri - entrare
empty: vacanti - vuoto
butcher: vucciri - macellaio
also: vide - anche
to kiss: vasari - baciare

I could go on like this for a week, and still only scratch the surface. Piccitto's 5 volume Sicilian dictionary goes for almost 6,000 pages and has about 250,000 Sicilian words in it, maybe a quarter of them are quite similar to the Italian, but about another quarter don't even have an exact Italian translation, i.e. the Sicilian vocabulary is absolutely immense, and is probably only rivalled by the English vocabulary for sheer size and richness. Salutamu. --pippudoz 03:53, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

~~how~~ did the "p" sound in the Latin word "plus" become the "k" sound in sicilian "cchiù?" If yes, how?

Probably more accurate to say that right across the board latin /pl/ became sicilian /ki/ or /kj/ (just as it became italian /pi/ e.g. chiazza = it. piazza, and there are many other examples. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The following seems superfluous: "Pre-historic Sicily was inhabited by at least three ancient tribes--the Elymi, the Sicani, and the Siculi, all of whom are genetically linked to North Africans and Celts. It is more than likely, that the North Africans reached the island by sailing the width of the Mediterranean south to north); the Celts, on the other hand, took the overland route. The archaeological record shows that during the Neolithic, large groups of Celtic peoples migrated from the Caucuses region to the Mediterranean coast of Italy and established communities in and around present-day Milan." There is no information given on the Sicilian language in this whole paragraph, and additionally, the information is fairly questionable. Celtic peoples did not enter Italy until the Iron Age, not the neolithic. The Celts were probably just a tribe of ProtoIndoEuropeans during the neolithic-- though Milan was eventually founded by Gallic tribes coming from north of the alps around the 400s BCE. The proof of genetic relation is not stated-- the North African relation is certainly more realistic, however (especially given the spread of agriculture and early agriculturalists from the mideast). See the article on the Sicels, it is informative. Any thoughts on a change/deletion of this paragraph? D.E. Cottrell 05:24, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In my household and immediate family Sicilian is the primary language. My grandparents moved here from San Biagio Platani, (Southern Sicily near Arigento), which means the way we speak is most influenced by Greek.

Just as a note, the Sicilian words you put up, a lot of them I do not even recognise. I have a feeling that those are old Sicilian words, Sicilian is increasingly becoming a dialect instead of a language due to the lack of international acceptance. There is not ISO or SIL language code for Sicilian despite its rich history and great difference from Italian. At this point however, I will say that there is no doubt in my mind that Sicilian is its own language. The first time I went to Italy, I attempted to Speak to a variety of People and no one north of Naples had any clue what I was saying.

- There is now an ISO code, as stated below. Also refer to the recent note left by Ninu who lives in Sicily and vouches for the continued use of these Sicilian words - they are not "old Sicilian words" they are actual Sicilian words known by anyone who speaks, reads and writes Sicilian. --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I just want to mention that there is a huge amount of variation within Sicilian in terms of word choice, many words have foreign equivilants, which although may be mutually intelligible throughout Sicily are rarely used outside of the area where that group help the most influence. One example is that in the west Provençal has left its marks in the Comune where troops from Southern France were stationed.

Andare is much more common, Iri being left by the Spanish. to go: iri - andare

- yes but andare is italian - iri or jiri is the correct sicilian and is known by all who actually can speak and write sicilian - --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

We use Sucu to refer to Tomatoe sauce and "sarsa" to refer to all others. sauce: sucu - salsa In parts of Sicily you actually say Left hand / Right Hand, instead of Left and Right. Somewhat confusing. left: manca - sinistra Babbu - Spanish: "Bobo", Babbu is usually used as a Noun, but also is an Adjective. Example when someone says something stupid we say "parra come la babba", "talks like the idiot" literally. idiot: babbu - stupido mandare is more common

- once again madare is italian - mannari is correct sicilian - --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

to send: mpostari - imbucare more - ccù - più

- actually it's cchiù or chiù. --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Basil in Sicilian comes from the Greek "Basilikon" So the stress is at the end instead of the beginning like the Italian.

One that is not in that list is "Here" which in italian is qui or qua, in Sicilian I usually hear "ccà" Somewhat like the Spanish "áca".

Many Sicilians find it difficult to read Sicilian, as it does not always represent their dialect, and most have grown used to reading Italian, and Speaking Sicilian. --Paolorausch 21:07, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Just as a note, the Sicilian words you put up, a lot of them I do not even recognise. I have a feeling that those are old Sicilian words". I am living in Sicily and we use this words on everyday life. Please if you do not live in Sicily how can you leave such comments? thanks Ninu

[edit] Sicilian, Italian

Did Sicilian develop "separately" from Vulgar Latin, or was it a continuous, common development from Vulgar Latin along with Italian? They're so close (linguistically & geographically), it was probably a common development. Alexander 007 01:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

- Sicilian did not develop directly from the vulgar latin of late roman times as did most of the other romance languages. The extent of the influence of vulgar latin from roman times is under great dispute, but by 1000AD, the island's two main langauges were Arabic and Greek - if any latin did survive - and it's possible that it did - it's representation was miniscule and was destined to have little bearing on the Sicilian language that did develop. However, written Latin remained here and there as a lanaguage of prestige. The latinisation of the island (along with a move towards western christianity) began with the Norman conquest (1061-1091AD). We have to understand that the number of actual Normans was never the major part of the invading army, it was supplemented by lombards (from both the North and South) and other southern Italians, predominantly from around Campania. The Sicilian that was to emerge had as its base the vulgar latin spoken at that time by the southern Italians of around Campania - but with a very large influence from both Norman French and Lombard. Large Lombard colonies were set up in central Sicily, especially in Piazza Armerina, Aidone and Sperlinga - where to this day, they speak a gallic-Sicilian dialect. Then a contingent of Provencal merceneries were stationed in the town of San Fratello, who to this day speak an unusual provencal-Sicilian dialect. Thus, there are many words of provencal origin in the language. But this is complicated by the fact that with the union of the Sicilian and Aragonese crowns in the 14th century, with both Catalan and Sicilian as official languages of the Sicilian court, many Catalan words entered the language, followed soon after by the influence of Spanish. All of this happened over the orginal Arabic and Greek of the island, and obviously we have many words in our vocabulary from these two langauges. So on the one hand, you are right to say that Sicilian appears similar to Italian (because the vulgar latin of Campania of the 11th century would not have been too different to the vulgar latin of Tuscany-Lazio in the same period) - but on the other hand - there are many other influences on the language - many of which do not affect any other Italian dialect - or certainly not to the same degree. I forgot to mention that there are also German influence dating back to the Hohenstaufen reign. Lastly, when people note a superficial similarity between Italian and Sicilian, what they are really noting is the modern influx of Italianisms into modern spoken Sicilian since the war - whether we are witnessing the normal evolution of a language or its absolute distruction is a matter of debate and opinion. --pippudoz 00:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For example, Sicilian is probably further from Northern Italian than Spanish is from Portuguese. On the other hand, people speaking in Northern Italian dialect can easily talk to people speaking the Southern French dialect. Thomas Eccardt, MA Linguistics, Yale 1977

Another cause for the resemblance between Sicilian and Tuscan is the fact that at a certain point (between the XII-XIV century) Sicilian was the literary language of choice between Italian intellectuals, and that the great Tuscan poets (even Dante himself) were imbibed of Sicilian poetries and terms.--Alessandro Riolo 18:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, from what I've seen about 85-90% of the swadesh list words are of Latin origin, although some of them have a quite different derivation path, such as Sicilian "mugghieri" (Italian moglie), Sicilian "iamma" (Italian gamba), Sicilian "tunnu" (Italian cerchio). However, there are some words I cannot connect with any word in Italian, Romanian, French or Spanish. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 08:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But how different is it from the Southern Italian dialects? But that's beside the point: I'm no longer questioning whether it can be considered a language. What I'm concerned with now is if it is Officially or Unofficially recognized as a language. Alexander 007 20:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia should make a practice of specifying whether a given speech is officially considered a language, or whether it is not yet recognized officially. Alexander 007 02:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You know that a language is a dialect with an army. ;-) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 21:11, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's true that Sicilian has no separate language status; but it does not mean that Sicilian is not a language. Even Sardinian, that is all but just a dialect, has no official recognition by the Italian government! I guess Sicilian won't be legally considered as "language" (at least for the near future), because of political reasons. By the way, ISO 639 includes Sicilian amongst its list of languages. That's why I guess it should be considered as a language, and not as a dialect. Anyway, you could take a look at the Sicilian Wikipedia version (yes, there is even a Sicilian one!) --Angelo.romano 00:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have been away from en.wiki for a couple of weeks, so I am now a bit surprised (and bemused) to return and find this discussion. As the last contributor notes, Sicilian does have a language code and that is precisely why a Sicilian Wikipedia was formed (of which I am one of the founders and the current bureaucrat). Even the it.wiki article on Sicilian has dispensed with this as an issue, quoting ISO 639. So folks - it is no longer a question that needs to be asked. Having said all that - I agree with the deletion of the great slabs on the siculi, sicani and elemi - as interesting as that was - it belongs in the general history rather than the linguistic history of Sicily. The issue is not about whether it is a dialect or language - the issue is that we need a proper article written!! Salutamu e speru ca putemu passari u nostru tempu facennu cosi cchiù mpurtanti! --pippudoz 00:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the very person who asked the ISO 639-2 code for Sicilian to be assigned, I could only add that Sicilian was qualifing as a language for any requisite the mantainers of the standard were asking for, and not just barely, but by magnitude orders, as they recognized promptly assigning the code. --Alessandro Riolo 18:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, if Sicilian has the official status of language, then the one major concern that I had here is no longer an issue. These details about its official status & language code were not found in the article---as they should be. Alexander 007 04:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

You are right - once again - the article needs a complete rewrite - I hope to have a go one day! Salutamu. --pippudoz 13:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Pippudoz, thank you for enhancing the article, it looks great now. I also like the color you chose for the info box. Alexander 007 20:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is Sicilian really not understandable to someone speaking Italian? Is there any established system of spelling? Are there dictionaries or similar books on the grammar? Or are the Sicilians the “Scanians” of Italy? Most Swedish-spoken people have no problem understanding Scanians. There is no standard system of spelling Scanian: when people want to write it they use phonetic spelling according to Swedish rules. There is a Scanian dictionary but the guy who wrote it shows clearly that he is not qualified as a linguist. The words where picked and chosen from several varieties yet he treats them as if they belonged to a single one! Furthermore, he makes claims about it’s origin contrary to relevant historical knowledge. In other words Scanian is only a Swedish dialect that some people want to be an own language. I wonder if Sicilian is not in the same way just an Italian dialect.

2007-03-09 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

With all due respect Lena, do you actually realise how idiotic your argument appears? As the sole source of your theory, you refer to some obscure vernacular for which a non-linguist created a dictionary. Is that it? Does your whole view on this subject rest on this obscure irrelevant fact? If you had some knowledge about Sicilian, about its history (to which Dante makes many references in the 14th century), about it's unique etymology, about its vast vocabulary (in my personal collection alone I have two separate dictionaries that run to 250,000 entries apiece, but there are many others), and I could go on, and on, and on - believe me - it's a non-issue. Rather than worrying about how different Sicilian is to Italian, you should be exploring how different Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are from each other! I promise you, you'd have a better chance of mounting a succesful argument on that front! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I just asked for the evidence since I had never heard about any Sicilian LANGUAGE before I read the article Siculish. I did NOT try to disprove the existence of the language: I just provided a good example of false language claim. In fact, I have defended the existence of a separate Corsican language on the ground of a multual agreement on how to write. I am sceptic who have hard to predict the reactions of others, wich make it a hard for me to pay regard to others at all times.

2007-03-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Apart from the Ethnologue entry itself, there are references contained within the article itself. But that only scratches the surface, There are written materials in Sicilian going back 900 years, indeed, there are examples of written Sicilian that pre-date written Tuscan (the forerunner of today's Italian standard). Because Dante had an intimate knowledge of written Sicilian in the 14th century (and at one stage was recommending it as the lingua franca for the Italian peninsular), many scholars have put forward the theory that that the origins of a written Italian standard are almost as much influenced by the written Sicilian of the time as the written Tuscan of the time (indeed the intro to the article on the Italian language says as much). From around 1300 to 1450 Sicilian was used by the Kingdom of Sicily to maintain records of parliament and the courts - but once the kingdom came directly under the Spanish crown, Italian became more widespread, and ultimately it was used exclusively as the official language, while Sicilian became substantially an oral language. But anyone with a familiarity of the two will know that they are quite different (despite the common Latin root), with further differences in etymology and grammar. Taking an historical view, it is impossible to argue that Sicilian is a dialect of Italian; it is possible to argue that they are closely related. However, Sicilian has Norman French, Catalan, Provencal, Arabic and Greek influences that are simply not found in Italian - we're not talking about a few words - we are talking about thousands of words - and that's before we even consider the differences in grammar (which are many) and the sound shifts that have occurred in Sicilian from Latin that are not present in Italian, which are also quite extensive. By the way, I hope you didn't take the article on Siculish too seriously - it is in no way suggesting that there is such a language as Siculish, rather, that there is a tendency amongst Sicilian communities in Anglo countries to Sicilianise English words - which is hardly an earth-shattering claim (incentally, I have a memory of this tendency in my own family, as many Sicilian immigrants to Australia would). The most surprising aspect is that the same Sicilianised English words show up in the USA, Canada and Australia - why that is so is unclear. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The word “Sicullish” stands for the typical way of speaking of South Italian immigrants in English-spoken countries. There is no Siculish language any more then there is a language called Franglais. Apparently, the relationship between Sicilian and Italian is similar to that between Serbian, Croatian and Serbo-Croatian. A lot of people talk about Serbo-Croatian as if it was a single language. If it had not been for the Yugoslavian civil war I would probably had been unaware of the differences between Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. (The splitting of Yugoslavia was most likely inevitable. The ethnic tensions existed throughout the Cold War but where suppressed by the Communist regime.) If there is a mutual agreement on how to write Sicilian why is it not accepted as a language?

2007-03-16 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Please note that Wikipedia is neither a forum nor place for original researches. I mean, this is actually the right place for discussing about how much Sicilian looks like a standalone language. There are noted sources which refer to Sicilian as a "language", not a "dialect". That's well enough to me and everyone here. Period. --Angelo 13:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Lena - why bring Serbo-Croatian into it? It is not analogous in the least. Sicilian is as far apart to Italian as Spanish is to Portughese. Once again, if you were to check the references included, you would cease to throw up comparisons that in fact have nothing to do with anything. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I know several cases when people call their dialect a language solely because they WANT to have a language of their own. Merely claiming that it is a language is not enough to me. After all, SIL International have been fooled to accept Jamtlandic as a language despite it is compleatly understandable to the majority of Swedes. Furthermore, there is no mutual agreement of how to write Jamtlandic any more then “spell phonetically according to Swedish rules”. I there is a greater agreement on how to write Sicilian today I will accept it as a language.

2007-03-27 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Wouldn't this be a more useful discussion if you had some idea of the history of the two languages? (i.e. Sicilian and Italian), or had some familiarity with the primary references included? I actually don't have to justify the validity of having this article, no more than you have to justifiy to me why Danish and Norwegian are considered separate languages (both being far closer to each other than Sicilian is to Italian). Wikipedia accepted Sicilian as a language due to the recognition given it by Ethnologue, and therefore the article exists. If you have any specific problems, point to any inaccuracies included within the article. Lastly, if a language has been predominantly oral for the last 900 years, does that make it any less valid than a language that has had a strong written tradtion over the same period? You're not making personal value judgements are you? I actually have personal copies of all the reference materials included in this article - if you were to immerse yourself in them, I promise you, you'd have very little difficulty accepting the recognition of Sicilian as a language separate to Italian. If you have an academic and scholarly problem with this recognition, perhaps you should lobby the Wikimedia board directly. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Salentino dialect(s)

Salentino dialect(s) is/are very similar to Sicilian. Gerhard Rohlfs studied deeply this subject, and wrote a dictionary regarding these dialect(s); the following site contains some interesting and useful clues on the topic:

1 (in Italian)

2 (in English).

--Doktor Who 02:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sicily

Just wanted to mention that there's a bunch of text in the article Sicily describing the language which should probably go here. DopefishJustin (･∀･) 16:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

agreed - I've finally made a proper start on the language article - where appropriate I'll transfer parts of the Sicily article here (although some basic introductory info can probably remain). --pippudoz 21:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
well into the process of completing an absolutely brilliant article, I have taken off the "clean-up" sign! --pippudoz 13:14, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My congratulations for the excellent clean up of this article. User:Gmelfi, 22:00, Jun 5, 2005 (CET)

[edit] Recognition

The article states, somewhat defensively:

"Sicilian is not recognised as an official language anywhere in the world, not even within Italy. There is currently no central body, in Sicily or elsewhere, that regulates the language in any way."

There is no central body, in Oxford or elsewhere, that regulates English in any way. It's a language. Who cares if either is 'recognised' 'officially' or not? User:Jigsawpuzzleman, Oct 18, 2005

I don't think it is meant to be defensive - it simply is stating a fact - also - if you could appreciate the effort I have gone through to even get this article off the ground with every second person seemingly wanting to ditch the whole idea - then maybe it's understandable why it might have come out looking a touch defensive (I accept it may look that way). Have you read all the comments in the Talk page from the start. That's without even looking at all the attacks I have had to endure (directly or indirectly) in both it.wiki and scn.wiki - I tell you - it's a hard slog daring to mention that Sicilian is a language (even to Sicilians!) - every second person wants to jump on you, beat you into submission and declare you as being POV - it makes one always wonder - who really is being POV in these sorts of discussions? The ones with armies to back them or the ones with history on their side? --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 03:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand and I'm sorry if I touched a sore spot. My experience concords with your comment that even sicilians are bashful about their language. It's bound to be considered by some as just a quirky way of speaking italian, but that's because it's rarely spoken pure but generally the two are mixed. Anyway, buon corragio! User:Jigsawpuzzleman, Nov 2, 2005

[edit] Template

To assist in showing correct phonetic symbols

Consonants (List, table)

[edit] Bold claim

Fram has rightly asked about a reference for the bold claim made in the opening line of this article. I do have the reference, that's not a problem, but I believe it to be very much a minority view - I just don't think the evidence is there to support it - and this article is currently based on the fact that any Latin that did survive on Sicily after the fall of the Roman empire did not have a lot of influence on the neo-latin language that arose from the Norman epoch (some 600 years later). So, I will add the reference, but I am going to move this claim to the end of the opening para to make it clear that it is very much a radical viewpoint. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 03:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible expansion

I was wondering about writing a paragraph on the influence of Sicilian language in Italian language. There are so many Sicilian words and says which has become part of Italian language too, and I think it would be very interesting. --Angelo 14:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Angelo - I think that would be a fantastic contribution - try as a separate major heading - but it could well be that down the track it will become an article in its own right (with only a summary remaining on this page) - all depending on how you go - I can help with copy editing if need be, and I might even have some additional references. I look forward to seeing it! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] San Fratellan

I noticed that someone has included San Fratellan as a Sicilian dialect (parratu nnû paisi di San Frateddu). But I do not think it is actually a dialect of the Sicilian language as such, but rather a form of Gallo-siculo and should perhaps be mentioned in there rather than here (being on par with similar idioms spoken in Piazza Armerina, Nicosia, Sperlings, etc). I believe there is already a link to that other article within this one. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I just checked the article: Gallo-siculo, and it is already mentioned there. If no one protests in the next 24 hours I will make the necessary adjustment. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

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