Talk:Necronomicon

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[edit] Misc

As my first day as a logged user, I have made an addition to the meaning of Necronomicon; hope to be welcomed. The Warlock

Re. the first para. discussion of the meaning of the word: I have to take issue with the "more prosaic (but probably more correct) translation". If the book is an invention of Lovecraft, then surely his definition of the meaning must be the correct one! -- Pamplemousse 05:37, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] declination to conjugation

For the record: the problems that require editting

A more prosaic (but probably more correct) translation, is via a declination of nemo (to consider): "Concerning the dead".

into

A more prosaic (but probably more correct) translation, is via conjugation of nemo (to consider): "Concerning the dead".

are:

altho "declination" also derives from "decline", in the grammatical context the noun is "declension";
nouns, pronouns, and adjectives get declined; verbs get conjugated;
a conjugation is the whole table in its normal order, not one entry in the table. (Something similar is true of "declension", even tho in Latin there are multiple declensions (identified by ordinal numbers); these may have to do with Latin having more cases, or more of what non-scholars would confuse with cases, than many other languages.)

(Hmm, is that the start of an article?) --Jerzy 19:50, 2003 Nov 13 (UTC)

[edit] Just a Tip

The Necronomicon itself is an actual text, but it is not at all that ancient. It was written by H.P. Lovecraft himself under the pseudonym "The Mad Arab Abdul Alhazred." I suggest you edit your definition lest some poor soul be misled by the information and attempt to wreak havoc across the land with a bogus curse.

(Though I must say, I have tried a few spells in the Necronomicon and they have at least given me the illusion that they do work, considering that 90% of the time they are actually put into effect) User:NeverLasting

Actually, you are wrong, User:Neverlasting. That text you are thinking of is probably the Simon Necronomicon, a modern concoction which blends Lovecraft's ideas with authentic ancient Sumerian magic. It is not the Necronomicon, nor was it written by H.P. Lovecraft. As far as is known from his surviving writings, Lovecraft never wrote a Necronomicon, though in a number of his stories he wrote up some short 'excerpts' from the text (tantalizing and well-crafted excerpts). There is no evidence that a Necronomicon existed before Lovecraft first mentioned the book in one of his weird tales. Alexander 007 17:00, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

You may also have had in mind the various other modern fake Necronomicons, none of which are authentic and none of which were written by Lovecraft. Though since the Simon version is the most popular fake, I'm guessing that is the one you were referring to. Alexander 007 18:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Known text excerpts

I've collected a number of excerpts from Lovecrafts stories, where he's directly quoting the Necronomicon. I thought it would be interesting to put these all together somewhere, if not in this article then perhaps in WikiQuotes or WikiBooks to make some form of fragmented official text, whichever would be most appropriate. Any thoughts? -- Quoth 02:17, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably WikiBooks...I think. Ask them, maybe? [[User:Premeditated Chaos|User:Premeditated Chaos/Sig]] 17:08, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It would be great to have some of the most famous excerpts on the page. I added one (below). Someone removed it immediately. Perhaps that person would be kind enough to explain why they think it is inappropriate.

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

H. P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu (1926)

I explained it in the edit summary. Excerpts aren't particularly relevant to an encyclopedia article about the Necronomicon, and secondly, if we start adding too many of them, we may run foul of copyright, so it's best not to start. --14:13, July 26, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation - I'm just getting the hang of this, and I've found your summary. However, I disagree with your reasoning. I think that excerpts can add to our understanding of the nature of this fictional book. I see from your page that you are probably an expert in copyright law! Perhaps you are being over-cautious, because I am sure you know that fair use permits the use of short extracts of copyrighted text for purposes such as review. Also, I see that Wikipedia Policy (Wikipedia:Copyrights) permits the fair-use reproduction of text extracts, but it does ask for this fact to be noted. Although the attribution alone might be considered sufficient, perhaps we could be even clearer and write:

That is not dead which can eternal lie,

And with strange aeons even death may die.

H. P. Lovecraft, The Call of Cthulhu (1926); Fair use of this Copyright work.

As someone unfamiliar with the concept of the Necronomicon, I can attest to the fact that some of Lovecraft's (and the imitators') excerpts would be helpful. Nicolasdz 04:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

It would probably be better to place such excerpts in a wikiquote article and link to it from this one TheDragonMaster 22:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correct translation

Probably Necro-Nomicon, the first one listed in the article. Cf. Astronomicon. Though since the book may simply be fictional and Lovecraft may have had no exact idea of the meaning he intended, it may be irrelevant to speculate which is more correct. Alexander 007 08:13, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nethack reference incorrect

I've removed the Nethack references from "possible derivations". If you look up the 'book of the dead' from within the game, this is the description:

Faustus: Come on Mephistopheles.  What shall we do?
Mephistopheles: Nay, I know not.  We shall be cursed with bell,
book, and candle.
Faustus: How?  Bell, book, and candle, candle, book, and bell,
Forward and backward, to curse Faustus to hell.
Anon you shall hear a hog grunt, a calf bleat, and an ass bray,
Because it is Saint Peter's holy day.
(Enter all the Friars to sing the dirge)
  [ Doctor Faustus and Other Plays, by Christopher Marlowe ]

The "book" here is the "Book of the Dead" in nethack. The name "Book of the Dead" probably was chosen from the Egyption & is not based on the Necronomicon. Certainly, when you read it, you do not go crazy!

--LWM

[edit] Cleanup

It was mentioned in the article that it needed to be cleaned up-- so I stuck a cleanup template on there. If you guys don't think it belongs, I've got no emotional attachment to it-- feel free to remove it. --Southwest

[edit] Concerning Simon's Necronomicon

I wrote an article on the Simon Necronomicon. Someone might want to take a look at it. SpectrumDT 20:04, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I don't know who writes all of the crap on your website, but I will never use it again. The Necronomicon is roughly "the exposition of the ways of the dead" it is an actual text writter by an islam known today as Abdul Alhazred (Alhazred means something close to "the servant of the evil") His real surname is lost. It was written in the early seventh century during his travels through the desert after being exiled from his homeland because of an affair he had with a woman of much higher social class. He was forced to live off of whatever he found in the desert until he made his way back to a civilization. And wrote the Necronomicon in his home afterward. The fact that this site has that it is a fake document or that it was written by Lovecraft is insulting and a joke. It is by far the most controversial book in history and it was almost lost because it has been outlawed and destroyed throughout history. If you wish to further rid yourselves of your complete ignorance, go to your local bookstore and have them search you up a copy because you can buy English translations of it for under $20. The next time you have a brain fart about what you think you know, please keep it to yourself instead of sharing it with millions of people who will call you a dumbass for posting false information on website that is supposed to help people.

Thank you for your input and the stunning faith in a piece of research that only cost you one book and under $20 and which you place above every other piece of literary and historical evidence to suggest otherwise. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 15:05, 3 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Usage of "Deus Ex Machina"

How exactly is the Necronomicon a deus ex machina? I find this a frank mislabeling. A deus ex machina indicates the interaction of a device with a plot. The Necronomicon does not have any interaction or resolution in Lovecraft's plots. A term that would be more applicable to the argument, I think, is "name dropping". Moneyobie 3:43, 24 January 2006

Good point -- I think the author of that paragraph meant a "literary crutch" or more charitably a kind of leitmotif, but reading the section I realized it was was entirely unsourced original research, so I removed it -- it was well-written, but unsourced speculation by the contributor. MattShepherd 15:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The "Colin Wilson" Necronomicon

A blatant hoax version of the Necronomicon was produced by paranormal researcher and writer Colin Wilson, describing how it was translated by computer from a discovered "cipher text." It is far truer to the Lovecraftian version and even incorporates quotations from Lovecraft's stories into its passages. -- I suspect this needs correction. Apparently it refers to the 1978 UK-published "Necronomicon" whose cover credits are: "Edited by George Hay. Introduced by Colin Wilson. Researched by Robert Turner and David Langford." That is, George Hay (not the ice hockey player who has a Wikipedia entry) was overall editor, Colin Wilson wrote only the introduction, the occultist Robert Turner was responsible for the supposed Necronomicon content, and I described the (imaginary) computer translation from (actual) cipher tables by Dr John Dee. Others contributed commentary, including L. Sprague de Camp and Angela Carter. David Langford--84.51.152.72 11:51, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

OK -- although uneasy about adding a link to myself, I've corrected the Colin Wilson reference as above. Before this edit, the book was attributed to Wilson in the text and to Hay in the bibliography. --DeafMan 09:03, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] House of Usher

Does anyone have a better explanation of this? It says that some believe the name was inspired by "The Fall of the House of Usher" but in what way? The possible inspiration from "Astronomicon" is fnord clear, but this bit about Poe is Not. bmearns.....(talk) 15:20, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Other apperances

"Other appearances" is quite large. Perhaps it should be moved to its own page, like References to the Cthulhu mythos. Bdoserror 22:15, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. So, I split off "Other appearances" to Necronomicon in popular culture.
-,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 22:31, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed from article

[edit] Necronomicon#Locations

I removed the following from the list of locations where the Neconomicon is supposedly kept:

[[National University of San Marcos]] in [[Peru]]

Since the paragraph explicitly references Lovecraft's works, I checked Anthony Pearsall's The Lovecraft Lexicon ("Necronomicon", pg. 294) to see if it is mentioned. It is not. Since it is not referenced in Lovecraft's works, why was this included here?
-,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 22:47, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

In fact it appears mentioned to be a Necronomicon at San Marcos in one of the cthulhu mythos tales, it was in August derleth's "The Lurker at the threshold", as he can be considered one of the "other autors" who created the book it can be considered correct to refer the university of San Marcos. --General Kane Nash 23:41, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

The University of Florida once (years ago) had a Dee printing in their Rare Books Collection, but I think they may have gotten rid of it. If the Locations section ever goes back in, it'd be worth contacting UF library.

[edit] Etymology

RlyehRising, I don't see any reason why "Ne-crono-mycon" is not a perfectly serviceable etymology of "Necronomicon." It's certainly not what Lovecraft intended, but it is a possible root to the word. Moreover, it's less far-fetched than, say, "Necro-Nemein-Ikon." Why not leave it in? Korossyl 18:09, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

What I would really like to see are some footnotes to some verifiable sources. Indeed, I have no idea where a good portion of this article is coming from. The Etymology section especially needs some cites; otherwise, it may qualify as original research.
,-~^R'lyehRising~-, 22:02, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's in any way research at all if it's just pointing out the various obvious ways that the word could be divided up. There's no research or even thinking to be done, as I see it. Korossyl 16:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

For the vast majority of readers and editors, how "Necronomicon" could be divided up is not obvious. Nareek 01:15, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

That's true, but it's still inherant information. For instance; I know Hungarian. If I see a word in an article in Hungarian, I could very easily go in and add the definition; it would not be original research. 99% of Wikipedians don't know Hungarian, so they couldn't do what I just did, but for those who do speak it, it would be very easy and would not require any original ideas or thoughts to be postulated. Perhaps if someone were to post an elaborate etymology, splitting up the word, giving archaic definitions for each part of it, going through its history and how the meaning has changed, etc., that would constitute original thought. However, saying that the word can be cut along this line or that and these are the meanings of its root words... I just don't see it as original, in any way. Korossyl 13:52, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm gonna add "Ne-crono-mycon" back, because it's a very possible and believable etymology, and I don't believe it counts as original research. If anyone has any objections, please raise them, or if anyone thinks it should be changed back, please post here first. Korossyl 00:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

A proposed etymology is a theory of how a word was derived and is therefore original research if it does not have a verifiable source. Nareek 13:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

Why are people insisting that The Necronomicon was H.P. Lovecraft's idea? It is fact that a copy of the book was carbon dated back to 730 or so A.D.

So far all I've seen from you people are vague assertations ("it is a proven fact," etc.) with nothing backing it up. The guy a few posts above just went on a completely unwarranted rant rather than provide proof. Give me absolutely definite proof that the Necronomicon exists and maybe I'll take you seriously. 209.158.200.108 23:20, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Illuminatus!

If memory serves (I've lent my copy to someone) the novel Illuminatus! by Robert Anton Wilson has a character visiting Miskatonic University to read the Necronomicon, and finding some revelation in it ("I can see the fnords!"). I don't know if that's something you want to mention? --Qef 14:05, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a candidate for Cthulhu Mythos in popular culture, if you can find the reference. We're trying to consolidate these into one article, rather than cluttering all the HPL articles individually (and frequently, redundantly). -- nae'blis _(talk) 18:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portrait

The text on Image:ImamAli.jpg clearly states that this is Imam Ali one of the most important figures for Shea. Why do we claim he is somebody else? Is it a simple vandalism or what? abakharev 04:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

It should go without saying that a picture in Wikipedia has to depict the thing that it says it depicts--to put up a picture and say it's the thing because we think it looks like the thing is a deception. Nareek 19:08, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] this page is mistaken.

the necronomicon is real, lovecraft didn't make it up, it's a real book, he just used it in his fiction necronomicon

The article you've linked to is full of errors. It claims that Ole Worm translated the book a year before he was born, and that Aleister Crowley met and collaborated with Theodor Reuss in 1912, the year in which Reuss in fact accused Crowley of having leaked OTO secrets, among other plain mistakes. It's bunk.--Halloween jack 22:12, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

The article linked to is not only full of errors, it is in fact simply an online copy of a 1985 (fiction) book that was meant as a (Fictional) version of H. P. Lovecrafts Necronomicon. Aside from Simons Necronomicon, it is considered the worst one to date. TheDragonMaster 00:08, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cthulhu in music

This article mentiones Metallica, but forgets the band's most relevant song to this theme, a song called The call of Ktulu. It can be found on album Ride the Lightning. - Xezs

[edit] Not a real book

It is generally accepted that the Necronomicon is not a real book. H.P.Lovecraft invented it in his horror stories. It first appears in The Hound in 1928. He also never wrote an actual Necronomicon under any pseudonym; his works contain quotations from the Necronomicon only (although calling them quotations is dubious since the book never existed), of which an especially long example is to be found in The Dunwich Horror. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.225.182.128 (talk) 23:04, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

[edit] Movie Missing

I seem to recall on cable a few months back a feature film called Necronomicon: The Book of the Dead (http://imdb.com/title/tt0107664/) and I am surprised that it is not listed among the film enteries for the Necronomicon here. Might be a worthy addition. Dragonranger 10:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Convention

Necronomicon is also an annual scifi, fantasy & horror convention in Tampa, FL. (Their website). Should a mention be made on this page? Or at least some sort of disambiguation? Lurlock 16:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a mention on this page would be appropriate. Nareek 16:21, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manga Appearance

If my memory serves me right the "Necronomicon" once appeared in one of the Slayers mangas. Can someone confirm that? Pi314 01:29, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There is more than one version of the Necronomicon

This is a subject that I have studied for many years. I am familar with both versions and can say with a strong assurence that the H.P. Lovecraft's version of the Necronomicon is not the correct one. There is a different older version that was written by Abdul Azaharad, also known as the mad arab. Lovecraft was a story writter, but this book is for real.

Can you supply any citations to back up that claim? TheDragonMaster 22:10, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Book of the dead redirect

I looked up "book of the dead" with the intent of finding the Egyptian Book of the Dead, and got redirected here. Given that there appear to be a number of texts that could be called "the book of the dead" prehaps a redirect page would be more useful? K e rowyn ^{Leave a note} 02:26, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] artists necronomicon

Someone forgot to mention the book of artwork called necronomicon by the artist who did the cover of Brain Salad Surgery (album) by ELP (band) and inspired alien (film) and aliens (film). His name is H.R. Giger. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Thaddeus Slamp (talk • contribs) 22:23, 2 April 2007 (UTC).Thaddeus Slamp 22:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

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