Talk:Ryukyu Islands

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1 Old discussions
2 Satsumu?
3 Flag
4 Supposed conflicts with Japan
5 Article renamed
6 Requested move
- 6.1 Survey
- 6.2 Discussion
  - 6.2.1 Portions of WP:MOS-JP in support of the restore
7 No consensus
- 7.1 Page move
8 Origin of the "Ryūkyū" toponym
9 Nansei and Ryukyu are not the same
10 Sources requested for "Rkyukyu proper"

[edit] Old discussions

Perhaps some of the content can be moved to History of Okinawa and Ryukyu Kingdom. --Tongpoo 00:50, 2003 Dec 5 (UTC)

I think Commodore Perry wrote the name as "Lew Chew"; is that worth noting? --165.121.147.225 00:35, 15 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I believe Lūchū is the Okinawan name for Ryūkyū. - Gilgamesh 00:55, 2004 June 14 (UTC)

...no, no it is not. "luchu"/"lew chew"/"loo choo" is an English-language name. The Okinawan name is "ruuchuu", a word borrowed from Chinese, or "uruma", a native word. --Node ue 11:10, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've been told the islands are notable for the exceptionally high longevity of their inhabitants. Is anyone in a position to expand this section? I think at least a brief mention (with some links to explanatory references) would be of interest to many readers. --Breakpoint 1755PST31JUL2005

I've added some very basic info on Okinawan longevity and a link to the Okinawa Centenarian Program. Will ask someone from the team to provide more specifics when she's less busy. Or else I'll try to get Dr. Willcox to write something. :) Oenomel 10:17, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Forgot to mention: The Ryukyu flag is possibly incorrect. The yellow and blue colors need to be switched. As supporting evidence, here's a Japanese book about the flag and a link to the book cover image. Also, according to a comment on Flags of the World: "The flag has three Tomoes of red, yellow and blue from top clockwise in white field. Oue [sic] image on FOTW Japan which supposedly was taken from The Flag Book of the United States by Whitney Smith is wrong and yellow and blue should be switched." Now, I'm no flag expert, but I'm leaning heavily toward the Japanese book. After all, the Japanese author is more likely to have access to more accurate historical Japanese/Ryukyuan sources, right? Oenomel 10:43, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

Or it may simply indicate that at the time the flag was used the relative position of the three colors was considered unimportant to those who flew it. It wasn't until the 20th century that the position of the stars in the blue canton of the United States flag became set in stone and some Revolutionary War U.S. flags had 7 white and 6 red stripes instead of the more common and now offical arrangement of 7 red and 6 white stripes. Caerwine 17:06, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Satsumu?

Ran across Satsuma Islands (a 1911 britannica stub) by random page, and can't quite tell how it fits into this page. Should it be redirected here? — Catherine\^talk 11:40, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

It seems like "Satsuma Islands" may be an archaic term. Maybe it refers to what is also known as Satsunan Islands. I could find only 23 Google search results for the term. Or maybe it could be voted for deletion.—Tokek 16:16, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Update: I looked into the matter further and found out that "Satsuma Islands" is likely an archaic name for Koshikijima Islands. The Britannica-derived Wikipedia version of the article said it belongs to Ryukyu Islands, but that was incorrect speculation. Further explanation given at Talk:Satsuma Islands.—Tokek 10:15, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Flag

The flag looks rather unprofessional to me; does anybody have a more appropriate image?

Rdr0 20:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi Rdr0, I was looking into replacing the image and I noticed the placement of the colors of the flag on the article are inconsistent with the that of this source and the Flag Book of the United States. I've switched the colors to match. If it was incorrect to do so, please notify me. I don't know much about this subject, but it seems this flag was only in use from 1875 through March 11, 1879. So, I have replaced this flag, moved it to the history section, and added its predecessor which was used until 1875. Jecowa 23:25, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Supposed conflicts with Japan

Recently I've seen in this article claims of:

A series of massacres against the Okinawans perpetrated by the Japanese army that killed off major portions of the Ryukyuan population
"big voices for independence and autonomy in some islands"

Also, it's hard to grasp the size of said independence movement, and what percentage of the Ryukyuan population sympathises with this. Does anyone have sources? I am actually not aware of No. 1. I know the Japanese army assasinated opposing polititians in the early years of the Japanese takeover, but I have not heard of major portions of the Ryukyuan population being massacred by Japan in order to clear "the Ryukyans' strong Chinese roots, anti-Japan emotions". In recent years, the deadliest periods that I am aware of was during WWII when the Okinawans were caught in the crossfires, and pre-WWI when Okinawa suffered a famine during a horrible economy. —Tokek 11:22, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

"ryukyu massacre" - 0 hits
"ryukyu kingdom massacre" - 0 hits
"Okinawa massacre" - 1 hit (about a play)

So yeah, there you go. No. 1 looks very fishy, and also sounds like it was written by someone who had just a tad too much of Chinese brainwashing. No. 2 might be negligible for this Encyclopedia, since pretty much anyone anywhere on Earth can desire one's region to gain nationhood. The question is, so what? —Tokek 12:23, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it has recently come to light that numerous massacres DID take place in Okinawa, at the hands of the Japanese military, before and during the 2nd world war times. In one account (which was actually covered on national Japanese TV network NHK and ASAHI newspaper, and based on declassified documents and eyewitness reports), a WHOLE village of Okinawans was killed because the men did not want to join the Imperial Army. The men were hung from trees, with wooden stakes driven though their KNEES (to represent the Hino Maru of the Japanese flag) while the women and children were tied together in groups and killed with grenades. Nothing to do with "Chinese brainwashing" or China at all. Sean-Jin--Sean-Jin 10:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, huge numbers of the Okinawan population were killed (up to 25%) during the Second World War (WWII).--Sean-Jin 10:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've posted a request for factual backup in this talk page, in the contributor's talk page (User_talk:72.136.191.136), and Wikipedia talk:Japan-related topics notice board. No references brought up. Because the alleged "fact" is very vaguely written and quite possibly false, I will be removing the last edit by 72.136.191.136 from the article. If it later turns out to be true, it can be re-added to the article by someone with better writing skills. —Tokek 12:30, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Update: Oops, I forgot to check the anonymous IP's talk page before I wrote the above. I thought that it would be unlikely s/he would have come back to post a reply, as the last contribution from that IP was in January. S/he says his/her source is a document in Chinese by an anonymous author, which is not online. S/he doesn't know where it is and will have to look for it, then upload it before others can see it. Unfortunately the reply raises more questions than it answers. —Tokek 12:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article renamed

I've renamed this article from Ryukyu Islands to Ryūkyū Islands in accordance with the guidelines in the Manual of Style for Japanese articles. Bobo12345 11:55, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

English place names are generally preferred over local place names where one exists for article titles on English Wikipedia (WP:NC(GN)). For example, Venice, Italy, Japan, Bonin Islands, Iwo Jima, Ryukyu Islands are preferred as article titles over Venezia, Italia, Nippon, Ogasawara Shotō, Iōtō, Nansei Shotō. In this article's case, the English place name is not spelled with marcrons (if English place names ever did), hence Ryūkyū Islands should be moved back to Ryukyu Islands.

Originally there was misunderstanding that Ryukyu Islands was the Japanese place name and that Ryukyu Islands = Ryūkyū Shotō. However, the article actually deliberately avoids equating the two, and it is explained in the article that the definition of Ryūkyū Shotō only covers a subset of Ryukyu Islands, a.k.a. Nansei Shotō. —Tokek 23:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, that's nice. But as we've already discussed this issue to death at WP:MOS-JA, please follow the consensus policy. I have not spent hours and hours changing links to read "Ryūkyū" just for my health. "Ryukyu" (りゅきゅ) is not a word, and conveys no meaning, while Ryūkyū (琉球), just like piñata and Curaçao, is a word. It's just like the common English spelling, but not dumbed down for the masses, with little marks that indicate the proper pronunciation. LordAmeth 08:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Of course I am aware of WP:MOS-JP. To reiterate myself again, Ryukyu Islands[1] is the English term. Nansei Shotō is the Japanese term romanised according to WP:MOS-JP. Ryūkyū Islands is nothing. Nobody uses it and no Wikipedia Policy recommends it. Again, *if* Ryukyu Islands were a Japanese term, then Ryūkyū Islands would have been valid according to policy, but that was only a misunderstanding. —Tokek 12:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Since there is confusion here, could you explain the meaning of each of the terms for us? Do I understand the following correctly?

Nansei Shotō = all of the islands stretching between Kyūshū and Taiwan
Ryūkyū Shotō = a subset of the Nansei Shotō including the Okinawa Islands, Kerama Islands, Daitō Islands, Sakishima Islands, Miyako Islands, Yaeyama Islands and the Senkaku Islands

Is that right? Bobo12345 12:56, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Basically, yes. Ryūkyū Shotō [2] consists of Okinawa Islands and Sakishima Islands. Furthermore, Okinawa Islands consists of Kerama Islands and Daitō Islands, while Sakishima Islands consists of the other islands that you've mentioned.—Tokek 14:22, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case, shouldn't this article actually be renamed "Nansei Islands", and "Ryūkyū Islands" can have its own separate article? What do you think LordAmeth? Bobo12345 22:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. That would be fine with me. Of course, since "Nansei" simply means "South-west", it's not really the 'name' of the island chain, it's really just describing it. Whatever you want to do. LordAmeth 09:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

I couldn't understand very well your claim that Nansei Islands is not a real name. However, Nansei Islands a.k.a. Ryukyu Islands do cover more territory than what was ever occupied by the Ryukyu Kingdom, which may be one of the reasons why it is not called as such in Japanese. —Tokek 11:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Since Ryūkyū Shotō is a subset of the collective term Nansei Shotō I will move this article to "Nansei Islands" and create a new page for "Ryūkyū Islands". I'll correct the pages linking to these pages too, including the Regions of Japan template. It looks like I will require Administrator assistance to do this though. Care to help, LordAmeth? :) Bobo12345 13:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no consensus. -- tariqabjotu 01:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

Ryūkyū Islands → Ryukyu — Restore common English name, revert User:LordAmeth's continual edit warring over this. Gene Nygaard 16:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Or, more accurately, as nominator thought he had requested it, a move back to Ryukyu Islands. If the "Islands" were dropped, it would probably be Ryukyus as on some of their postage stamps. Gene Nygaard 18:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Support as nominator. Gene Nygaard 17:49, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Strong Oppose "Ryūkyū Islands" is the most accurate, correctly spelt English name.--Hús ö nd 17:55, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

"Ryukyu Islands" is at least as accurate, correctly spelled, and the more common English spelling. Gene Nygaard 19:09, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Check your English dictionary; Ryukyu Islands (without macrons) is used universally in all other encyclopedias and dictionaries.--Endroit 13:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Support — As explained in Ryukyuan History, Ryukyu was U.S. Territory for 27 years (from 1945 to 1972), during which the islands were called "Ryukyu" WITHOUT any macrons. Therefore Ryukyu should NOT use any macrons.--Endroit 20:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

For the record, my 1st choice is Ryukyu Islands, and my 2nd choice is Ryukyu (without macrons in either case).--Endroit 13:21, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Note Interestingly, Ryukyuan History redirects to History of Ryūkyū Islands.--Hús ö nd 21:27, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, that's because of page moves done last month. The article was called Ryukyuan History for the longest time, until people started applying the macrons.--Endroit 21:31, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Strong Oppose Bendono 21:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Strong Oppose Line 10. in the Romanisation section of the WP:MOS-JP states "Island names should always include macrons." In the cases of prefectures and cities, only the most widely known outside of Japan (Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, and Kobe) have been excluded. These were voted on and consensus reached on the WP:MOS-JP Talk page. Ryūkyū is not well known in English speaking countries. If you're looking to demacron the name of an (arguably) well known island, try Hokkaidō. The argument between LordAmeth and Tokek on this issue was prompted by ambiguity in the terminology used for this set of islands (see above!). It was not an edit war. Bobo12345 22:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out below, Ryukyu is well known in English-speaking countries, because of the postage stamps it issued. Never a "Ryūkyū" to ever be found on even a single one of them. Gene Nygaard 03:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

So if a place has issued a stamp, you think that means it is well known? Bobo12345 06:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment The term "Ryukyu Islands" is in the same class as "Bonin Islands", "Iwo Jima" (by the way not macronised), and "Japan" (not "romanised" as "Japaan"). It is an English name that differs from the Japanese name. I think the policy you refer to is supposed to be interpreted in a cultural context, not based on superficial national borders. Loan words from Japan are not necessarily always Hepburn romanisations either (e.g. "soy" and "yen"). I believe that in the WP:MOS-JP policy it is assumed that we are talking about romanisation, and romanisation only seems to make sense for terms that are not already written in the English alphabet to begin with. —Tokek 12:40, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

"Iwojima" is a historical curiosity. The spelling is based on the historical Japanese spelling いわうじま. The pronunciation has been イオージマ for many centuries though. You can also find it spelled Iwôjima, Iôjima, Iwōjima, Iōjima. "Bonin" is widely known to be a mistranslation of 無人島 by Abel Remusat. The Japan <-> Japaan example is moot for two reasons: it is ジャパン, and more importantly it is translation of 日本. The English word "soy" is borrowed from Dutch, not Japanese. They borrowed it in the 17th century and it too reflects a historical spelling and pronunciation. "yen" also reflects a historical romanization. "Ryūkyū / Ryukyu" is different from all of these examples. It is an attempt to transliterate (not translate) 琉球 and has nothing to do with historical spellings or romanization systems.Bendono 00:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

One etymology theory that I've read suggests that the word soy originated from shōyu, the Japanese word for soy sauce, which eventually became the Dutch word for soy, then brought to English. —Tokek 11:03, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

- I disagree that WP:MOS-JP applies here for 2 reasons (although that's just my personal opinion).
  1. The word Ryukyu comes from Ryukyuan languages, not Japanese language.
  2. The word Ryukyu has NOT been picked up by the Japanese after U.S. occupation, although it is understood. It's called Nansei Shotō in Japanese, and Ryukyu Islands in English (WITHOUT macrons).

Also, the vote on Hokkaido was against macrons, although "no consensus" was declared.--Endroit 22:23, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Support --Akhilleus (talk) 05:42, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Support a restore to "Ryukyu Islands." Let me know if this is a proposal for a move to "Ryukyu" and not "Ryukyu Islands."—Tokek 12:46, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Support. I do not favor macrons in English text. Shilkanni 04:12, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose'. LordAmeth 08:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose per the arguments above. Valentinian ^{(talk) / (contribs)} 17:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Support Standard without macrons in English [3], [4]; also search for Ryukyu at Amazon. JJL 18:50, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Support Per common usage. Jecowa 19:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose per the artguments above and WP:MOS(JP). —Nightst a llion (?) 19:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Support move to Ryukyu Islands as both Britannica and MSN Encarta use Ryukyu Islands. This would fall under the exception to the macronization due to being established in English. I personally prefer macrons be used when applicable, but I also understand there are some exceptions to the rules. I believe strongly that this is one of those exceptions. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 23:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Support. Per Endroit, the MOS:JP argument for the macronning is deeply flawed because we are not even dealing with Japanese. This washes out the basic premise of the move. However, editors working on pages that deal with the Okinawan language also employ macrons, including over the a, which has never been acceptable under MOS:JP (see, for example, bitter melon; also note that gōyaa is technically the correct pronunciation in Japanese, although gōya is common). Both of these points are overcome by the fact that the standard, macronless spelling is common usage in English. Once again I am frustrated because I am basically in favor of the macron, but I am against macron-pushing. Dekimasu 04:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. For those who are interested in the pronunciation of what appears to be essentially a Japanese word, consistent provision of macrons in the term "Ryūkyū" will be helpful. Those not interested are free to ignore them. Cf WP's provision of the diacritic in Tábor. "Luchu" is an English spelling that I learn from the article has more grounds than I'd assumed; I wouldn't be opposed to a renaming to Luchu islands. -- Hoary 11:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
- You're wrong about that Hoary. "Ryukyu" is an English word with a modified pronunciation. Below is the entry for the word Ryukyu from Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (subscription required).--Endroit 15:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  
  Main Entry: ryu·kyu
  
  Pronunciation: rēˈ(y)ü(ˌ)kyü, rɪˈ-
  
  Function: noun
  
  Usage: usually capitalized
  
  Etymology: from the Ryukyu islands, southwest of Japan
  
  : the language of the Ryukyuan people that is related to Japanese

- Below is an entry for Ryukyu Islands from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, Eleventh Edition / Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged. Merriam-Webster, 2002. http://unabridged.merriam-webster.com (subscription required).--Endroit 15:54, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  
  Main Entry: Ryu·kyu Islands
  
  Pronunciation: rē-ˈ(y)ü-(ˌ)kyü, -(ˌ)kü
  
  Function: geographical name
  
  islands W Pacific extending between Kyushu, Japan, & Taiwan; belonged to Japan 1895-1945; occupied by United States 1945; returned to Japan in 1953 (N islands) and 1972 (S islands) area about 850 square miles (2202 square kilometers), population 1,222,458 -- see AMAMI, OKINAWA, OSUMI ISLANDS, SAKISHIMA ISLANDS, TOKARA ISLANDS
  
  - Ryu·kyu·an \-ˌkyü-ən, -ˌkü-\ adjective or noun

- And here's the beginnings of the full-page entry for "Ryūkyū Islands" in the English version of Louis Frédéric's "Japan Encyclopedia". You'll notice that it's completely in English, with no kanji, and tailored to an intelligent but otherwise uninformed reader. In other words, it's scholarly and accurate, but not written in a particularly esoteric way for a niche kind of audience.
- Ryūkyū Islands (Chin.: Luchu.) Archipelago between Kyushu and Taiwan, extending more than 1,200 km from north to south. ... According to legend, the kingdom of the Ryūkyū Islands was founded by the dynasty of the Tenson (Chin.: Tiansun) family (shi)...
- I'm not sure what parts I ought to include or anything, but most of it is written like that - accurate macronization, except for super-common English words like "Kyushu" (I wish he hadn't done that, as it goes counter our standing policy on Kyūshū), and written in a very generalist, but not dumbed down, encyclopedic fashion. I'd be happy to include other portions if anyone wants me to, about how they represent other portions of the topic, or how they refer to the Ryūkyūs in other English-language texts I own. LordAmeth 23:07, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

"Japan Encyclopedia" seems like a Japan-centric encyclopedia, and NOT a general encyclopedia like ours (the English Wikipedia). Does anybody have any more macronned example(s) from any general encyclopedia or dictionary?--Endroit 01:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The World Book Encyclopedia (Q-R) says,

Ryukyu Islands, ree OO KYOO, are a group of more than 100 islands in the North Pacific Ocean that belong to Japan. … The Ryukyus can be divided into five groups from north to south … Ancestors of the Ryukyuans probably came from Japan and Taiwan, and possibly from the Philippines. …

Jecowa

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

User:LordAmeth also flouts the rules when he makes his repeated moves, never fixing the indexing sort keys when he does so. Gene Nygaard 16:24, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Gene, what relevance does that have to renaming this article? The wording of the comment itself borders on harassment. As others have told you, please try to be civil. If you are not interested in fixing them yourself, please leave a comment on the specific pages alerting others to the issue. Bendono 00:00, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it has a lot to do with naming of this article. What we have is a bunch of immature kids playing with a new toy, and nobody in the taking any responsibility whatsoever for its proper use. Gene Nygaard 03:35, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I just took responsibility for it here and have added sort keys for this article. It should not be an issue anymore. It is comments such as "immature kids" that I was referring to about being civil. We may disagree on some issues, but lets try to be a little more constructive here. Bendono 03:58, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Gene, it would be have been really helpful if you'd actually read this Talk page before requesting a move that was redundant. I'm about to move this article to "Nansei Islands", as we were discussing above. Bobo12345 22:04, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Gene, I'm tempted to just let that slide, but I can't. I am not an immature kid playing with some toy, and I do not regard any of you as children either. I happen to be a Master's student in Japanese history, and I do very much consider myself a scholar and historian. I may have been a little sloppy in my work the last week or so, but that is no reason to attack me personally, and it has no bearing whatsoever on what the correct romanization of 琉球 should be. I am deliberately sitting this one out, as my opinion has already been made, and because I'm in no mood for argument right now. Wikipedia should be a place for calm discussion, not for argument, and not for personal attacks. LordAmeth 01:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

You had damn sure better get consensus for it before you try any such move. I for one will oppose it. Gene Nygaard 03:36, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you don't move this article to Nansei Islands, which is the Japanese name. This is NOT Japan-pedia. We don't Japanify everything and anything just because....

It's called Ryukyu Islands in English, as collaborated by:

--Endroit 22:54, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese name is 南西諸島. You could also argue Nansei Shotō. However, it is most certainly not Nansei Islands. "Ryukyu" is and abbreviation for Ryūkyū. By the same abbreviation logic, Nansei should become Nanse, which does not happen. Bendono 23:42, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

If you didn't understand me above, I said it's Nansei Shotō in Japanese and Ryukyu Islands (WITHOUT the macrons) in English. If you want to try any of the more obscure variations (I don't care whichever one you choose), go ahead and initiate the move, and I'll oppose you.--Endroit 23:49, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

It is "Ryukyu Islands" in postage stamp catalogues. It is "RYUKYUS" on the general issue postage stamps that include Romanizations. Philately and postage stamps are, of course, one of the primary ways in which the Ryukyu Islands are known to English speakers. Gene Nygaard 03:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In addition to postage stamps, don't forget that the Ryukyu Islands are the birthplace of Karate, and many martial artists will know them from there. Ryukyu Kempo is a system that is rising in popularity, for example. JJL 19:58, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Is this proposal to move the article to "Ryukyu" (as suggested above) or "Ryukyu Islands" (as suggested on the Requested Moves page? Bobo12345 06:02, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I was also wondering about the same thing.—Tokek 15:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

This was intended to be Ryūkyū Islands → Ryukyu Islands —, an undoing of LordAmeth's recent change. But it appears in the WP:RM listing as here, without the "Islands" in the target move, because I copied the template adding the one difference, "RMtalk" in place of "RM". Does anyone have any suggestions as to what to do about that? Gene Nygaard 18:05, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

In that case we have 3 support votes for Ryukyu Islands already, because User:Akhilleus is the only support vote who didn't mention Ryukyu Islands.

However, I think you should redo / initiate another move, with the intended WP:RM request, after withdrawing the current one. Also, we should individually notify everyone who already voted.--Endroit 18:16, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I support Ryukyu Islands (and note that the CIA factbook entry on Japan uses "Ryukyu Islands") but a new request may be a good idea. --Akhilleus (talk) 05:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

I also noticed that the MOS-JP was quoted above, to wit, "10. Island names should always include macrons." This is in a section that relates to article text, not titles; the following section of the MOS-JP reads in part "Article titles should use macrons except in cases where the macronless spelling is in common usage in English-speaking countries", and I think the evidence provided in this discussion has shown that "Ryukyu Islands" is common English usage. --Akhilleus (talk) 06:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a question: if there is no consensus, is the article title supposed to be restored? In general, when there is no consensus there is no moving to a new name, and the current name is the new name.—Tokek 00:15, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portions of WP:MOS-JP in support of the restore

I was re-skimming WP:MOS-JP to see if the page had more relevant things to say, and I found several, for example the very first section in that page:

English words of Japanese origin

The en:Wikipedia is an English language encyclopedia. An English loan word or place name with a Japanese origin should be used in its most commonly used English form in the body of an article, even if it is pronounced or spelled differently from the properly romanized Japanese: use Mount Fuji, Tokyo, jujutsu, shogi, instead of Fujisan, Tōkyō, jūjutsu, shōgi. Give the romanized Japanese form in the opening paragraph if it differs from the English form (see below).

See also: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)

Ryukyu Islands appears to fall under this category, because A. it is the most commonly used English form, and B. It is "pronounced and spelled differently" from Nansei Shotō.

A) All non-macron, and probably non-diacritical, forms are most common in English. It's more work to enter, and humans are lazy. That is not to say that the spelling Ryūkyū does not exist though.Bendono 05:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

B) You must admit that the spelling "Ryukyu" (and Ryūkyū) is an attempt to write 琉球, not just a coincidental spelling. Japanese also has the expression 琉球諸島. Semantically the two expressions now refer to slightly different things, but that does not mean that "Ryukyu" is not to be identified as 琉球.Bendono 05:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Other portions of the text show that precedence should be given to the English term:

That is the problem. It is difficult to identify "Ryukyu" as an "English term". A clear example is English "Japan" vs. Japanese "nihon". Compare that to English "Ryukyu" vs. Japanese "Ryūkyū".Bendono 05:28, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Give the romanization for any name or term written in kanji or kana when the Japanese pronunciation is different from the English pronunciation. Use the pattern:

English (Japanese characters rōmaji)

In this article's case it would look like:

Ryukyu Islands (南西諸島 Nansei Shotō^?)

Although not relevant, in the section regarding people's names, it says: "Use the form found in a dictionary entry from a generally-accepted English dictionary..." Yet again stressing the importance of using the most comonly found form in English dictionaires and encyclopedias.

There has been debate at other places on Wikipedia on when to use macronned hepburn romanization vs. when to use macronless hepburn romanization, but discussion of Japanese romanization can make sense only when there's an original Japanese term that is being directly romanized to begin with. In the case of Ryukyu Islands, there isn't, and you can't romanize a term that is already in alphabet (Ryukyu Islands). If you romanize the Japanese term for the same place, you get Nansei Islands which is already not preferred because it is not the most common English form. —Tokek 04:23, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out, in case anyone was not aware, that 南西諸島 (Nansei shotō) simply means "the islands to the south-west" or "The Southwest Islands", and is not necessarily a name. 琉球, pronounced Ryūkyū in Okinawan and Japanese, and as liuqiu in Chinese, and spelled as "Ryukyu" only by those too lazy, unscholarly, or unknowledgable to use macrons, is the original name. It's not a Portuguese or Dutch invention. It's not a bastardized Anglicization. It's the original word. LordAmeth 10:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

You keep on saying that Nansei Islands is not a name. This claim doesn't make sense to me.
The article claims that "Luchu" is the Okinawan pronounciation, but if you know better, feel free to correct it.
Saying that Ryukyu Islands is the lazy person's spelling of Ryūkyū Islands assumes that it is supposed to be spelled Ryūkyū Islands, begging the question.

—Tokek 16:51, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Is the "south of England" as official a name as Cornwall? Is Western Europe an official regional name in the same way and to the same extent as "Germany" or "France"? To call something "the islands to the south-west", is not to give it a name. LordAmeth 17:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the examples you give are not official names, but Nansei Island is de facto real and official Japanese name and I am not seeing any reason why this shouldn't be the case. I am arguing in favor of Ryukyu Islands over Nansei Islands anyway. —Tokek 00:20, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we should stop talking about Nansei Shotō or Nansei Islands. It is clear that English and Japanese semantics of the terms are not exactly the same. It is also clear that English "Ryukyu Islands" is an attempt to write 琉球諸島, not 南西諸島 or even Luchu. It is not a freak coincidence. Bendono 01:21, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

The name Ryukyu Islands without macrons, is based on the long U.S. occupation of Okinawa. Okinawa was a U.S. Territory for 27 years, and the island chains were called Ryukyu Islands (without macrons) as a whole and Nansei Shotō on the Japan-side (Kagoshima Prefecture). After Okinawa reverted back to Japanese possession, the entire island chain became Ryukyu Islands in English and Nansei Shotō in Japanese. Other prominent island naming (without diacritics), based on U.S. Territorial posession include Hawaii (instead of Hawaiʻi), Oahu (instead of Oʻahu), and Iwo Jima (instead of Iwōjima).--Endroit 01:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I am very aware of the history. I used to live in Okinawa. The term "Ryūkyū / Ryukyu Islands" existed prior to the US occupation. It is an attempt to write 琉球諸島, not 南西諸島. Semantically English and Japanese usage now differ. However, that does not change the expression itself. I see the spelling Hawaiʻi occasionally. I usually see Oʻahu instead of Oahu; even the Wikipedia article itself prefers Oʻahu. We have already discussed Iwojima. Bendono 03:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

If you're familiar with the occupation, you must also be aware of the spelling preferred by the U.S. Government, without macrons of course. It's always Ryukyu Islands and Hawaiian Islands. These are the most common forms used in English, regardless of any historical usage by the Japanese prior to the war.--Endroit 03:32, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

Ryukyu is much more commonly used than Ryūkyū by very far. The naming conventions guideline says to "use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." In addition, the naming conventions (precision) page states that in the case of the existence of multiple forms of the same name (including differences in diacritics and capitalization) to follow the conventions of the Wikipedia naming conventions, which says, "Names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors; and for a general audience over specialists." Also, the naming conventions guideline says, "When choosing a name for a page ask yourself: What word would the average user of the Wikipedia put into the search engine?" Do you honestly think that the majority of users even knows how to type macrons? Jecowa 19:33, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

[edit] No consensus

The request for move was (quote): "Ryūkyū Islands → Ryukyu". The result of the debate was (quote): no consensus. Please move the page back to Ryūkyū Islands until there is consensus. Bendono 02:15, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The article name was "Ryukyu Islands" WITHOUT macrons until people moved it without consensus (ie: 9-7 against macrons, as we know it now) in October. The article name ought to be "Ryukyu Islands", the name it was originally before the "moves without consensus" done in October.--Endroit 02:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

We will have to disagree. Nevertheless, the result of this move was no consensus. I encourage you to read this note: User talk:Tokek#Ryukyu Islands Move. Bendono 02:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

All interested parties, please continue your discussion at the WP:MOS-JP talk page, at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū. Ryukyu Islands is just one of many "Ryukyu" related articles. The discussion at WP:MOS-JP has already headed towards de-macronning all articles with the word "Ryukyuan". Closing admin, please take note, and comment there as well.--Endroit 04:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The result of this discussion was no consensus. Restore title ASAP.--Hús ö nd 04:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that the proper title to restore it to is Ryukyu Islands. Please discuss at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū.--Endroit 04:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

The move from Ryukyu Islands to Ryūkyū Islands was contested and the resulting discussion turned no consensus about moving it back. Everything followed the right procedure, whether or not the first move should have been proposed and discussed before being executed.--Hús ö nd 04:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but that technicallity only covers Ryūkyū Islands. People, you need to discuss the whole picture involving the word "Ryukyu". Don't be ignorant, what do you want to do about the other "Ryukyu" related articles. Please, please comment at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū.--Endroit 04:32, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

That's to be decided in consensus, preferably following input by users with expertise in romaji transliteration. I agree that there should be only one form. Now please be WP:CIVIL. Thank you.--Hús ö nd 04:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't have a personal preference either way here, but since the the result was "No consensus", the article should be moved back, as supported by WP:STYLE:

If all else fails, consider following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor (that is, not a stub) to the article.

Going back through the history of the article shows that the first version of it was non-stub, called Ryukyu Islands, and grew rather steadily after that.

Both sides here have reasonable arguments, but I'm somewhat concerned about "Ryūkyū" besing used for the Satsunan Islands, which are considered part of the Ryukyu Islands (in English) but not part of the Ryūkyū Shotō (in Japanese).--GunnarRene 17:59, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the move-lock

Locking admin, please keep this article move-locked until the discussion is over at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū. And please respect the decision made there, if any. Thank you.--Endroit 16:03, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Why is there already another poll just a few days after this one just ended with no consensus? As is often done in other situations, it may be best to wait a few months before trying this again. We need to work out our differences and come to a consensus. It seems like you are trying to sneak another move poll in on another page. Even if WP:MOS-JA (a guideline) is changed, the prior poll concluded that there is no consensus to move this page, Ryūkyū Islands. Regardless of the decision at WP:MOS-JA, please do not move this page without requesting a move first. Bendono 00:32, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I have posted a notice above to continue discussions at the WP:MOS-JP talk page, at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Ryukyu vs. Ryūkyū. And a notice was put there exactly one week ago that a poll will be done to clarify WP:MOS-JP. And nobody objected. If you feel that procedures were breached, please ask an admin for help. Otherwise please DO continue discussions in WP:MOS-JP and vote there.--Endroit 00:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

It appears that this discussion moved from here to MOS-JP on or around 22 November, and there's a subsequent survey on the topic at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)#Poll: "Ryūkyū" instead of "Ryukyu". Based on the arguments presented in that discussion, I'm going to move this article to Ryukyu Islands. I think it's safe to say that the macronless "Ryukyu" is a quite common English spelling of this name, and though we have conflicting guidelines, there seems to be more and better arguments against macrons, in this case. I hope this doesn't start another move-war; if so, we'll have to re-protect the page. I'm lifting protection for now, to test this solution. -GTBacchus^(talk) 18:40, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Bendono informs me that I moved the page prematurely. I was basing my move on the timing of the request at WP:RM. I didn't realize that the allotted 2 weeks had not yet run their course. I apologize for my carelessness. I think we ought to leave the page alone for the next... 3 days is it?... and then we can move it back to Ryūkyū Islands if that turns out to be the conclusion of the discussion. I'm sorry for any inconvenience. -GTBacchus^(talk) 02:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Don't worry. As quoted above, if in doubt: If all else fails, consider following the spelling style preferred by the first major contributor (that is, not a stub) to the article.--GunnarRene 13:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the "Ryūkyū" toponym

I believe there is a serious inaccuracy in the following sentence from the first paragraph of this article:

"The Ryukyu Islands, known as Nansei Islands (南西諸島, Nansei-shotō?) in Japanese meaning "southwest islands", pronounced "Luchu" in Okinawan..."

The major problem with this sentence is that a form "Luchu" does not natively exist in the Okinawan language. The Okinawans have historically never called their land "Luchu" or "Ryukyu" or anything of the sort as far as I know. It is neither an endonym nor an autonym; it is rather an exonym applied by the ancient Chinese to some mysterious island or islands in the ocean east of China whose people were often believed to be cannibals. Most modern historians believe that it is more likely that "Liúqiú" (流求 in Classical Chinese, 琉球 in Modern Chinese and Japanese), i.e. "Ryūkyū," was originally used as the Chinese name for ancient Taiwan or some similar island, perhaps closer to the Philippines than to Okinawa. The Okinawan name for their homeland is (and has always been, as far as we can know) "Uchinā," which is cognate with Japanese "Okinawa." The name "Okinawa" appears in phonetic transcriptions (actually, the "Oki" part transcribed phonetically with man'yogana and the "-nawa" part transcribed with the kun reading of the Chinese character for "rope," i.e. 繩) in the most ancient native Japanese and Okinawan (AKA Ryukyuan) writings about the islands. Even today, the so-called Ryukyuans refer to the era when they were governed by the so-called Ryukyuan Dynasty as Uchinā-yū (or Huchinā-yū in some parts of Northern Okinawa where they speak the Kunigami language), which would be cognate with a hypothetical mainland Japanese form of *Okinawa-yo (沖縄世). This word literally means the "Okinawa age/era/generation."

In all honesty, anyone who claims that the Ryukyuans call their homeland "Luchu" must be a complete ignoramus, at least when it comes to linguistics. If you knew anything about the Japanese or Ryukyuan languages, you would know that the phoneme /l/ does not even exist in any dialect of either of these languages, and the phoneme /r/ (actually an alveolar flap) is restricted to occurrence in non-initial position within a word; that is to say, according to the native Japanese and Ryukyuan phonology, it is impossible for an /r/ sound to occur at the beginning of a word. Any word in either of these languages that does begin with the /r/ phoneme is an undisputed loanword from the Chinese language.

In summary, it is likely that the Japanese call the islands Okinawa (which is also their native name) or Nansei Shotō (Southwest Islands) rather than Ryūkyū because they know that Ryūkyū is a misnomer and an exonym (mis-)applied by foreigners, in this case the Chinese. Claiming that the name "Luchu" (which is actually an early modern European rendition of Chinese "Liuqiu") is somehow a native Okinawan name and a basis for resistance against the "Japanese invaders" is a boatful of hogwash. It is rather like claiming that "West Indies" is the proper native name for the islands of the Caribbean when it is plainly clear to anyone with half a brain that "West Indies" is a misnomer mistakenly applied by European foreigners who thought that the native Cariban and Arawakan (Arawak, Taino, etc.) peoples were related to East Indians.

The most important thing to realize in all this is that the inhabitants of the various islands that are now grouped under the historically rather inaccurate label of "Ryukyu Islands" have always considered themselves and referred to themselves as the people of the particular island in which they originate, such as "Myāku" (Miyako Island), "Uchinā" (Okinawa Island), "Dunan" (Yonaguni Island), etc. Ebizur 02:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Nansei and Ryukyu are not the same

「南西諸島は、鹿児島県と沖縄県にまたがっているが、このうち鹿児島県側を薩南諸島、沖縄県側を琉球諸島と言[う]」also, if you check out the 琉球諸島 article, it says 「琉球諸島（りゅうきゅうしょとう）は、南西諸島の中でも沖縄県に属する部分」. This should be mentioned in the article, should it not? Some people have been suggesting the word "Ryukyu" is not used in Japanese, which seems to be a misunderstanding stemming from the unfortunate wording of this article.Mackan 12:05, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ryukyu Islands, Ryūkyū Shotō, and Ryūkyū Rettō are already distinguished in the English version:

Ryukyu Islands: "The Ryukyu Islands, also known as Nansei Islands...stretch southwest from the island of Kyūshū to Taiwan."
Ryukyu Islands: "The islands are administratively divided into Satsunan Islands to the north, belonging to Kagoshima Prefecture, and Ryūkyū Shotō to the south, belonging to Okinawa Prefecture"
Ryūkyū Shotō:"...refers to all of the islands that comprise Okinawa Prefecture.."
Ryūkyū Rettō: "Ryūkyū Rettō (琉球列島) refers to what was once the territory of the former kingdom..."

Nobody is thinking that "Ryukyu" is not used in Japanese. I don't know where you got that misunderstanding. Also, there has been discussion about the macron vs non-macron version, and the article has been moved several times already. People should catch up on that first if one is concerned about it. —Tokek

I can't find the quote, but I did see somebody suggesting that Ryukyu is not a Japanese term (arguing that they use Nansei instead) in connection to the debate over Ryukyu with or without macrons over at MOS:JP. At any rate, I don't think this article is too clear on the definitions. Shouldn't Nansei Islands have its own article? Or is the English definition of what is Nansei and what is Ryukyu different from Japanese? Mackan 13:33, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Which quote did you not find? Did you omit ellipses when you performed a search on the article? You can try searching shorter lengths like "stretch southwest from the island" or "refers to what was once". This is the Nansei Islands article. As noted above, Ryukyu Islands (in English), Ryūkyū Shotō (in Japanese), and Ryūkyū Rettō (in Japanese) all have different definitions, while Ryukyu Islands (in English) == Nansei Islands (in English) == Nansei Shotō (in Japanese), although Ryukyu Islands (in English) appears to be used more often than Nansei Islands (in English) . —Tokek 13:54, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

But Ryūkyū Shotō means Ryukyu islands! Also, why does Ryūkyū Shotō redirect to this page? Is Ryukyu islands really not just a translation of Ryūkyū Shotō which has mistakenly been used for the Nansei islands? Mackan 16:31, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ryūkyū Shotō/Ryukyu Shoto should redirect to Ryūkyū proper/Ryukyu proper.--Endroit 16:34, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

But even the Ryukyu proper says the Japanese name is also Nansei Islands. Thoroughly confusing, don't you agree? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mackan (talk • contribs) 16:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC).

Here is a map of Nansei Shotō (南西諸島) from a Japanese government agency. This map (海図 kaizu^?) is provided by the Japanese Maritime Safety Agency publications (海上保安庁刊行 kaijō hoanchō kankō^?). It doesn't mention the word Ryūkyū (琉球^?) at all.--Endroit 16:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

That doesn't exactly make things clearer. Are you suggesting Ryukyu proper doesn't exist?Mackan 17:04, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just saying that the word Ryūkyū (琉球^?) is passe in Japanese, and hardly ever used at all in recent times.--Endroit 17:07, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I contest that. The word is used plenty. Where do you mean it isn't used? In reference to the island? In reference to the culture? Are you suggesting that the current introduction is fine as it is? Mackan 17:11, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

The word "Ryukyu" is used much, much more in English. And it is extremely passe in Japanese. When you translate from English to Japanese (and vice versa), you need to account for that fact. Ryukyu doesn't even show up in the Japanese map I showed you above.--Endroit 17:16, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

On what do you base that? I've come across the word several times in Japanese, so I feel confused. If it's so passe, how come that a quick google search shows that there are 4950 hits for 琉球, just on Okinawa Times online edition, while 南西 gives only 291 hits [5][6]? Surely you must be mistaken.Mackan 17:24, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I suggest you redo the search using specific terms Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?) vs. Nansei Shotō (南西諸島^?). And then announce the results. Otherwise you're counting FC Ryukyu (which is a soccer team) and other irrelevant stuff. By the way, the word "Indian" is equally passe in English, as "Ryukyu" is in Japanese. There's political correctness involved (see Ebizur's comments above). That doesn't mean the word "Indian" cannot be used in English. Although "Stanford Indians" were renamed to Stanford Cardinal, Cleveland Indians still keep their name. Same thing with the word Ryūkyū (琉球^?) in Japanese.--Endroit 17:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I did do that search too, but you refused to be specific about in what sense the word is not used, so I figured you meant it's extinct (edit: sorry, not extinct, passe) in all uses. I agree that FC Ryukyu articles are irrelevant though. Either way, that search produced 124 hits for 琉球諸島 and only about half of that, 65, for 南西諸島. I bet you tried this out for yourself so why are you trumpeting it out as if you were proven right? Ryukyu seems to be used alot more often than Nansei, when it comes to the name for the islands, as well as for a whole lot of other uses (football teams, name of university, etc).Mackan 17:57, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Ebizur: "it is likely that the Japanese call the islands Okinawa (which is also their native name) or Nansei Shotō (Southwest Islands) rather than Ryūkyū because they know that Ryūkyū is a misnomer and an exonym (mis-)applied by foreigners", surely Okinawa Times wouldn't use the word to the extent it does if this were true. Surely the Ryukyu FC wouldn't go under their current name if this were true. Mackan 18:02, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Mackan, you seem to be missing the point. "Ryūkyū" is a dated exonym and misnomer derived from Chinese: this is an indisputable fact of historiography and linguistics. The word "Ryūkyū" (or one of its variants) continues to be used in some circles, however, as a means of indicating the historically independent kingdom, based on the island of Okinawa, that conquered and governed the rest of the Nansei Islands during the middle ages, as well as the unique culture that was developed and nurtured in the Okinawan kingdom during that era. China, and the governments of all the European nations that received their first knowledge of the kingdom of Okinawa through the Chinese, referred to the Okinawan kingdom as "Liuqiu," "Luchu," etc. until the kingdom was finally overthrown by Satsuma-han, and even after the Okinawan kingdom was incorporated into "Japan proper," the name "Luchu" or its Japonified version "Ryūkyū" continued to be used by speakers of various foreign languages. The problem is that the people of the Okinawan kingdom never actually referred to their islands or their kingdom as 琉球 ("Liuqiu," "Luchu," "Ryūkyū," or whatever) except in written communications conducted in Classical Chinese, such as with the Chinese or Manchu imperial court.

The only context in which it is proper to use the word Ryūkyū in modern times is when referring generally to the various ethnic characteristics (culture, language family, etc.) that the diverse peoples of the Nansei Islands share in common to a certain degree and which set them apart from the other regional cultures of inhabitants of the Japanese Archipelago, namely the Japanese and the Ainu. It is acceptable to use the word Ryūkyū or any of its derivatives (Ryūkyūan, etc.) in such an ethnographical context only because there is no other widely known word that can be taken to refer to all the peoples of the various Nansei Islands in a lump. These peoples have always considered themselves as the people of their own particular island or village, and if they ever spoke of themselves as members of some greater ethno-political entity, they spoke of nothing more than the dynasty to which they were nominally subjected, such as the dynasty of one of the kings of a subregion of Okinawa prior to its unification, or the dynasty of the king of the united Okinawa after its unification, or as the subjects of the Tang Dynasty or the Satsuma fiefdom or whatever. They never developed a native word that could be used to describe the various peoples of the different islands because they did not need one until they were forced into comparing themselves with people whose cultures were even more obviously "different" or "foreign," such as the Chinese or the Japanese, and instead of inventing an entirely new word to refer categorically to the peoples of all the Nansei Islands and their cultures, which are related to but distinct from those of the other islands of the Japanese Archipelago, people have been lazy and decided to adopt the word that has been used for hundreds of years in correspondence with foreign dynasties. Ebizur 19:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Wait... I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I'm not saying any of the stuff you seem to think I'm saying, I'm just protesting to the notion that the word Ryukyu is "extremely passe", "like the word Indian". The way Endroit made it sound as if the word was not used at all, which I think I've proved is not true. Which is not even what I'm talking about from the start, I'm just saying that Nansei Islands and Ryukyu Islands are not the same in Japanese, so I thought it was misleading that the introduction puts an equal sign between the two ("The Ryūkyū Islands, known as Nansei Islands"). Edit: OK, I wrote this while your message was still at the bottom, making me think that your comment was a general one on the discussion me and Endroit were having. Now that you moved it up I realize you are commenting on how I interpreted what you said, which I suppose means a different answer might have been more appropriate, but I'm too tired to re-write it all.Mackan 19:20, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for noticing why I moved my comment up, Mackan! (^-^) I ran into a problem while trying to post my reply; I think it was because either you or Endroit had posted something during the time I was composing my reply. Ebizur 20:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just gonna make one short comment before I go to sleep, which is not necessarily relevant but I think it's interesting: What makes "Ryukyu islands" any more of a misnomer than "Nansei islands"? If the claim that Ryukyu is a misnomer is supported by the fact that Ryukyuans themselves do not use the word, then by the same criteria, isn't Nansei also a misnomer? Mackan 19:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think you've raised an important issue, Mackan. It's true that the term "Nansei Shotoo" (Nansei Islands) is equally foreign to the native people of those islands, and it even makes the potentially inflammatory mistake of referring to them by their geographical position relative to Kyūshū or Honshū as if they were naturally subordinate to those northeasterly Japanese islands. The problem is, like I mentioned before, that there is no native term that refers to the modern concept of "Nansei Islands" or "Ryukyu Islands" as a single entity. The concept itself is a rather modern contrivance that did not have a place in the traditional societies that made their home in the islands that are now lumped together as "Nansei Islands" or "Ryukyu Islands."

However, I notice that my previous comments have been a bit too verbose and have failed to make my contention clear, so at this point I think I should just try to bring myself back to my original topic. I was really only trying to make the point that the sentence in the main article that claims that the Ryukyuans, native people of the Nansei Islands, or whatever you want to call them call their homeland by the name "Luchu" is inaccurate (or misleading at best), so I believe that that sentence should be rewritten. Ebizur 20:35, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

First of all, you need to make a distinction between the Japanese (called "Yamato Minzoku" by the Okinawans) and the Okinawans themselves. Nihon Keizai Shimbun, Sankei Shimbun, and Yomiuri Shimbun would be more representative of "Japanese" than Okinawa Times, and they appear to use Nansei Shotō (南西諸島^?) more often. Furthermore, political correctness would mean MANY alternate words will be used, such as (but not restricted to) Okinawa Shotō (沖縄諸島^?) and Amami Shotō (奄美諸島^?). Also, the government of Japan appears to completely avoid using Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?) in their maps, as I have shown above. I will concede though that the word Ryūkyū (琉球^?) is NOT extremely passe in Japanese. They're only passe, just like the word "Indian" in English, that's all.--Endroit 18:26, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Mackan, when you wake up, I request a coherent explanation why the Japanese government excludes the word Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?) from their maps. As I remember correctly, during the U.S. occupation of Okinawa, the U.S. portion of the Ryukyu Islands were called Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島, Ryūkyū Shotō^?) in Japanese, and the Japanese portion was called Nansei Shotō (南西諸島, Nansei Shotō^?) in Japanese. After the U.S. returned Okinawa to Japan, the entire island chain were called Nansei Shotō (南西諸島, Nansei Shotō^?) in Japanese, and Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島, Ryūkyū Shotō^?) name became passe in Japanese.--Endroit 20:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, Endroit, I think the proper answer to the question of why the Japanese government never uses the name "Ryūkyū" in any official documents is because the name "Ryūkyū" has not had any official currency since post-centralization Meiji Japan's formal annexation of the Kingdom of Okinawa, which had been internationally known as "Luchu," "Liúqiú," etc. I surmise that people in the service of the Japanese government are better educated than the average person about the history of the region and its various toponyms, so they would purposely avoid using such a dubious term as "Ryūkyū," which the imperial court of China basically forced upon the medieval kingdom established by the people of Okinawa because of the Chinese court's ignorance about the precise location or historical identity of the islands of the Okinawan kingdom and the provenance (or should I say "ethnic relations"?) of their people. The Chinese did this very frequently throughout history, often considering themselves as the center of the universe and "granting" names that could be written in Chinese characters to various far-flung kingdoms for use in official correspondence. Ebizur 21:15, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, I concur with Mackan in regard to the matter of the strict distinction that is made between "Ryukyu Islands" (琉球諸島) and "Nansei Islands" (南西諸島) in present-day usage. As Mackan mentioned somewhere else on this talk page, "Nansei Islands" is the more inclusive term for all the islands in the arc stretching south and southwest from the southern coast of Kyūshū, including the Amami Islands that are politically part of Kagoshima Prefecture; "Nansei Islands" is thus essentially the political map's version of the geophysical map's "Ryukyu Archipelago." In contrast, the term "Ryukyu Islands," according to current prescription, is properly restricted to that part of the Nansei Islands that falls under the jurisdiction of Okinawa Prefecture. However, this distinction too is rather artificial; again, the name "Ryukyu" is native to no one's language, and the arbitrary excision of the Amami Islands from the "Ryukyu Islands" is difficult to rationalize ethnographically. Ebizur 20:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

As an aside, it should be noted that the natives of the Nansei Islands do have native names for the concept of various island groups, such as the Yaeyama Islands, which are called Yaima, Yēma, or Ēma and whose language is referred to as Yaima-guchi, Yēma-guchi, Ēma-guchi, etc. However, they do not have a native name that would encompass the whole of the Nansei Islands or the Ryukyu Islands. Ebizur 21:42, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Ebizur, I admire your knowledge of the Uchinanchu (Okinawan) people and culture. However....

Ebizur and Mackan: You both appear to be a bit confused. "Ryukyu Islands" (in English) and "Ryūkyū Shotō" (in Japanese) are 2 different things.

"Ryukyu Islands" (in English)

According to Merriam-Webster Online entry for "Ryukyu Islands":

islands W Pacific extending between Kyushu, Japan, & Taiwan; belonged to Japan 1895-1945; occupied by United States 1945; returned to Japan in 1953 (N islands) and 1972 (S islands) area about 850 square miles (2202 square kilometers), population 1,222,458 -- see AMAMI, OKINAWA, OSUMI ISLANDS, SAKISHIMA ISLANDS, TOKARA ISLANDS

"Ryūkyū Shotō" (琉球諸島, "Ryūkyū Shotō"^?) (in Japanese)

According to Yahoo Japan dictionary entry for Ryūkyū Shotō (translated):

The southern half of Nansei Shotō (南西諸島, Nansei Shotō^?). Comprised of Okinawa Shotō (沖縄諸島, Okinawa Shotō^?), Miyako Shotō (宮古諸島, Miyako Shotō^?), Yaeyama Shotō (八重山諸島, Yaeyama Shotō^?) and belongs to Okinawa Prefecture.

"Nansei Shotō" (南西諸島, "Nansei Shotō"^?) (in Japanese)

According to Yahoo Japan dictionary entry for Nansei Shotō (translated):

Name for the archipelago stretching from the southern tip of Kyushu to Taiwan. Comprised of Ōsumi Shotō (大隅諸島, Ōsumi Shotō^?), Tokara Shotō (吐喇諸島, Tokara Shotō^?), and Amami Shotō (奄美諸島, Amami Shotō^?) of Kagoshima Prefecture, and Okinawa Shotō (沖縄諸島, Okinawa Shotō^?) and Sakishima Shotō (先島諸島, Sakishima Shotō^?) of Okinawa Prefecture. Splits the Pacific Ocean from East China Sea.

As I have just shown above, all the citations prove that "Ryukyu Islands" (in English) is equivalent to "Nansei Shotō" (南西諸島, "Nansei Shotō"^?) (in Japanese), but NOT to "Ryūkyū Shotō" (琉球諸島, "Ryūkyū Shotō"^?) (in Japanese).--Endroit 02:59, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Man, you're really fighting wind mills, aren't you? Yes, I am a bit confused. Could you please read what I've previously written?? All I ever argued for (before you suggested the word Ryukyu is extremely passe) is that the introduction is confusing. If, in English, the Nansei Shoto indeed are called the Ryukyu islands, I think it should, in the introduction, mention that the Japanese definition of the Ryukyu islands is different from the English one. The sources you've presented show it is likely that the english Ryukyu is the same as the Japanese Nansei and not the Japanese Ryukyu. Well, let's explain that in the introduction then..! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mackan (talk • contribs) 10:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC).

Sure Mackan, we should clarify the intro like you say. But it's "Ryukyu Islands" WITHOUT macrons in English, and "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" WITH macrons in Japanese. And don't forget to mention the words "in Japanese" (or "in Japan"), so that people don't get confused.--Endroit 17:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, that's a good point, Endroit. I think your analysis is correct, but it still seems a bit unnatural to me to distinguish English "Ryukyu Islands" from Japanese "Ryūkyū Shotō," which is certainly the source of the English term. I suppose this might be one of those cases where the sense of a loanword has been broadened or narrowed (in this case, broadened) in the course of borrowing or subsequent to borrowing; however, it seems just as likely to me that "Ryūkyū Shotō" in Japanese might have been used for the entire arc of islands that is now called "Nansei Shotō" at some time in the past (say, before the Amami Islands were repatriated from the United States earlier than the rest of the Ryukyu Islands and glommed onto Kagoshima Prefecture), and the English term might have been borrowed from that older, broader usage of "Ryūkyū Shotō." Ebizur 05:20, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

And thank you for your compliment, Endroit, but I'm really no expert on Japanese and Ryukyuan issues! I'm just a student who has spent the last several years studying Japanese, Ryukyuan, and Korean dialects. Ebizur 05:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Ebizur, in this article, I believe we need to clearly distinguish the current Japanese definition of "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)", from the English "Ryukyu Islands." After all, this is an English encyclopedia. And we don't want to confuse our readers.

Also, I'm pretty sure the U.S. government imposed the name "Ryukyu Islands" (without macrons) during their occupation of Japan (1945 to 1953) and Okinawa (1945 to 1972).

Until the 1800's, the island chain was internationally known by other romanization(s) of "Ryukyu". For example, I have a map of the 19th century Asia showing "Liu-Kiu Is." (and below it, it says "To Japan since 1879"). (p. 170, Historical Atlas, Eighth Edition, by William R. Shepherd, 1956 Barnes & Noble). Can somebody research what the Japanese name of the islands were between 1879 and 1945?

By the time the U.S. occupied Japan in 1945, the islands were internationally known as "Ryukyu Islands" (without macrons), the U.S. government used this name, and the Japanese government translated this into Japanese as "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)". I'm pretty sure that "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" in Japanese was a translation from English into Japanese concurrent with the U.S. occupation (ignoring for a moment what the origins were). So I guess the Japanese called the entire island chain "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" between 1945 and 1953 (full occupation). And they called only the Okinawa Prefecture portion "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" between 1953 and 1972 (occupation of Okinawa). After the occupations ended (1972), the term "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" became passe in Japanese, but the latter definition still remains. (Sorry, I don't have a source for this though).

There are other Chinese (not necessarily Mandarin, perhaps Min Nan) words which were naturalized into English via Japanese (Kyushu or Okinawa): ginkgo and nunchaku. The point is, the word "Ryukyu Islands" was naturalized into the English language long ago without macrons. You wouldn't add back a macron to the word "ginkgo" just because it originally came from Japanese, would you? (Ginkgo is a mistransliteration of an archaic Japanese romanization ginkyō (銀杏 ginnan^?)).--Endroit 17:15, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Going back to my comment about the term "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)" being passe in Japanese...

The Japanese government currently uses "Nansei Shotō (南西諸島, Nansei Shotō^?)" for the whole island chain, as shown in this map. "Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?)" is never used there.
The Japanese travel industry uses variations of "Okinawa (沖縄, Okinawa^?)" and/or "Amami (奄美, Amami^?)" instead of "Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?)", dropping the word "Islands" (諸島, Shotō^?) altogether. For example my June 2002 copy of the JTB Timetables (JTB時刻表, JTB jikokuhyō^?) uses "Amami & Okinawa Region" (奄美・沖縄地方, Amami Okinawa Chihō^?), but the word "Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?)" is blatantly missing there as well.
The most common substitute for the terms "Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島, Ryūkyū Shotō^?)" and "Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?)" in Japanese, appears to be "Okinawa (沖縄, Okinawa^?)" in Japanese, or "Uchinaa" or "Uchinanchu" in Okinawan. Google results should be able to confirm this.
After some observation, I conclude that the Japanese avoid the word "Ryūkyū (琉球, Ryūkyū^?)", and replace it wherever possible (for an unspecified reason).

--Endroit 18:11, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

You still have no source whatsoever to support your statements with. I too can tell of anecdotal evidence where I've seen the word Ryukyu, for example, I am pretty sure I saw it in a guidebook I bought at Itami airport before going there, but that doesn't really account for much. For a reason none of us know for sure, the name "Ryukyudoes not appear on that ONE government map you keep referring too. But nor is the word Nansei islands, not on the actual map. Maybe they chose Nansei over Ryukyu to describe the map because it actually shows all of the islands, i.e. according to the Japanese definition (from jawiki) shows what would be called Nansei islands. Furthermore, a quick google search shows that the word 琉球諸島 aswell as 琉球列島 IS used on Japanese government pages (琉球諸島[7] 7350 hits, 琉球列島 [8] 9570 hits), in total, more often than Nansei islands (Nansei shotou gives 10300, rettou gives 3490). All of your conclusions are just based on assumptions. Show us some actual proof that you're right, show us a source which says "In Japanese, the word Ryukyu is hardly ever used", "the word Ryukyu is passe". If it's true I bet you it can't be hard to find. Mackan 10:37, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

As for the Japanese travel industry, I hardly think one copy of "June 2002 copy of the JTB Timetables" is gonna give us the whole picture. The word Nansei islands are not used either, but that doesn't mean that that word is passe, now does it.Mackan 10:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Mackan, are you even reading your own citations? Before we begin though, witness our own article Government of the Ryukyu Islands. This appears to be a translation from the Japanese article ja:琉球政府. The Government of the Ryukyu Islands (without macrons) was U.S. Territory, and existed from 1952 to 1972.

Now let's review your first 10 cited J-gov sources for Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?)[9].

1873: Old maps from pre-Imperial Japanese government control [10]
1972: Related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府, Ryūkyū Seifu^?) [11]
1971: Related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府, Ryūkyū Seifu^?) [12]
1971: Related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府, Ryūkyū Seifu^?) [13]
2006: Related to UNESCO's World Heritage Site (世界自然遺産, Sekai Shizen Isan^?) [14]
1953: Related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府, Ryūkyū Seifu^?) [15]
2006: Related to UNESCO's World Heritage Site (世界自然遺産, Sekai Shizen Isan^?) 　[16]
1953: Related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府, Ryūkyū Seifu^?) [17]
1952, 1972: Related to the Treaty of San Francisco (サンフランシスコ平和条約, Sanfuranshisuko Heiwa-jōyaku^?) + another treaty between Japan & U.S. [18]
2005: Related to UNESCO's World Heritage Site (世界自然遺産, Sekai Shizen Isan^?)　[19]

Without exception, the first 10 usages are either pre-1879 or translated from foreign usages of the term "Ryukyu Islands". And the majority (6 out of 10) appear to be related to the U.S. controlled Government of the Ryukyu Islands (琉球政府 Ryūkyū Seifu^?), between 1952 and 1972. Authentic Japanese usage appears to be pre-1879 only, proving that Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?) is extremely passe in Japanese. Not only that, the meaning of Ryūkyū Shotō (琉球諸島^?) in Japanese is variable and unstable as shown in the above links.

You DO have a case for Ryūkyū Rettō (琉球列島^?) [20] with 9570 hits, an equivalent for "Ryukyu Islands" in English, although it's not in the Japanese dictionaries. But you forgot to mention that Nansei Shotō (南西諸島^?) [21] has 10,300 hits there as well, and Okinawa (沖縄^?) [22] has 214,000 hits.

And Mackan, you haven't responded to my suggestion that most occurences of Ryūkyū (琉球^?) are replaced by Okinawa (沖縄^?) and/or Amami (奄美^?) in modern Japanese usage. Even Ryūkyū Rettō (琉球列島^?) is commonly replaced by Amami & Okinawa (奄美・沖縄^?), rendering the word Ryūkyū (琉球^?) passe.--Endroit 16:41, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources requested for "Rkyukyu proper"

The article Ryūkyū proper does not have any references. I couldn't find any real world usage of this term outside of Wikipedia and mirrors. Sources are needed to verify that this is not a neologism. —Tokek 13:58, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

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