Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Baseball/Archive 3

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

MLB Team Season Articles

Hello. The start of the MLB season is 2½ months away. Similar to what I am doing with my NHL team season articles, I have started the concept of doing a similar project for the MLB baseball season this year. If anybody would like to work on this project, click here. The details and information is available on this site. Simply add your name next to a team, and feel free to create the article. I hope that this project is successful and has enough people working on it to get the articles for all 30 teams. Thanks. Ksy92003 00:33, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Bobby Cox

This article is a complete mess and needs work ASAP. Quadzilla99 15:42, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

Question about player statistics

I notice that articles on players generally don't include their statistics. I assume the reason for that is that MLB statistics are widely available from other sources, such as baseball-reference.com, which can be accessed through an external link. My question is about players for whom this is not the case -- specifically, pre-1950 Negro League players and notable career minor leaguers. (I've edited articles for a few of these players.) For early Negro League and minor league players, their statistics may be scattered among various books or old baseball guides. Would it be considered acceptable to include the statistics for these players within the article (while citing the sources)? — BRMo 15:06, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Proposition of a merge between WPBB and WPBBP

I am proposing that the projects become one, I don’t see why the projects are separate. There are different ways you can do this and one way would be to make the WPBBP a subproject/taskforce of the main WPBB. This would have them using the same template, the discussions staying closer, etc.

Please comment --Borgarde 00:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

What's WPBBP? -- KirinX 02:04, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Baseball players --Borgarde 06:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for merging somehow. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

I support merging. There's so much natural overlap, I don't see what the benefit would be in keeping them separate. This way we could keep consistent style/organization/etc. through all baseball-related pages. --Wayne Miller 14:49, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

How long should we wait before taking any action, a simple move of the project to something like WikiProject Baseball/Biographies is all that is needed right now. --Borgarde 07:37, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Baseball

Baseball has been nominated for a featured article review. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to featured quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, articles are moved onto the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article from featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Reviewers' concerns are here. ~~ —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jeffpw (talk • contribs) 21:00, 21 January 2007 (UTC).

Comments Regarding Player Birthplace

The Chien-Ming Wang article is the site of a dispute where a number of Chinese users are attempting to add Republic of China as Wang's birthplace. I've looked but am unable to verify this with a reliable source. I realize that ROC and Taiwan are the same, however since the threshold for inclusion into Wikipedia is verifiablity and not truth as per WP:VERIFY, I've asked for a source that includes Republic of China. The following reliable sources list Wang as being born in Taiwan: [1],[2], [3], [4], [5], however I've yet to see a single reliable source that says Republic of China. Since this dispute is now starting to include personal attacks from a number of users 'recruited' by one particular editor, I'm requesting some third party opinions on how this should be handled. Thanks. Yankees76 00:50, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, first of all, if you are receiving personal attacks, you should talk to an admin about it and see about getting those editors/users straightened out, and/or banned. Here's a helpful link: [6]

As for your issue about Wang, I agree, I've never seen a source that places him anywhere but "Taiwan". -- KirinX 02:09, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not worried about the personal attacks, I've dealt with far worse in the past. I've templated/warned the users and will involve admins upon further transgressions. And yes, Taiwan is the only place I've seen any source mention regarding Wang. That's the problem - there are 3 Chinese editors who are insisting on placing Repbulic of China as Wangs birthplace - but when I ask for sources, I get strawman fallacies and runaround. Yankees76 03:40, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Naming Conventions

I think it's about time we discussed naming conventions on articles.

While editting I've noticed articles that have players names and then (baseball), ones that have (baseball player) and ones that have (LEAGUE NAME player).

I can understand the use of league name player once there has been two players with the same name, but what is the default? (baseball) or (baseball player)?

Same goes with baseball teams. I've seen (baseball), (baseball team), and (LEAGUE team). Which one?

Should we not use (baseball) at all and simply put (baseball team)? And then if there has been two teams with the same name, one goes with the (LEAGUE team)?

I support the article that has the most significance to not carry a name in brackets. For instance, if a team has world wide significance, let them use the name of the article, and the one that is a hardly known minor league team to use (baseball team) at the end.

Any thoughts? --Borgarde 05:20, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Category:World Baseball Classic players

How should the sub-categories within this category be named? They are currently Category:2006 World Baseball Classic players of Country or this way, Category:Country players in the 2006 World Baseball Classic

The current categories are:

I prefer "Canadian players at the 2006 World Baseball Classic". Just want some thoughts into this. --Borgarde 14:25, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Shoeless Joe Jackson

Sorry if this is not the place to put this, but I just noticed the tag on the discussion page of Shoeless Joe. It says that Joe's article is "middle-importance". Say it ain't so!

If you are looking at pure numbers over a full career, maybe this is accurate. If you are looking at pure talent it is not even close. If you are looking at the what he added to the legend, lore, and myth of the game he is probably the most important player ever (at least tied with the Babe, Ty Cobb, and Yogi Berra). If you are looking at how he affected the game of baseball and how baseball is viewed in American culture - it's just him and the Babe.

In short, could somebody please check the umpire's eyeglass prescription?

Smallbones 16:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I personally believe it should be Mid-Importance. There is a set of criterion available here that you can take a look at.

While Shoeless Joe is an important part of baseball history, as an individual, he is not as important as the scandal he was a part of, and thus, in my opinion, should be "Mid", not "High". The Black Sox Scandal is "notable in a significant and important way within baseball", but people could even make an argument that it really didn't change much in how it contributes to the modern game. -- KirinX 18:07, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

I'd argue that the scandal did contribute a great deal to the modern game. It was the first time someone was banned for life from organized baseball (including the Hall of Fame), which echoes in today's Pete Rose debates. Also, this issue helped to establish and define the role of the Commissioner in baseball. Add to that the fact that it marked the end of the career of one of (perhaps) the five best players of baseball's first half-century and the 90-year championship drought for one of the AL's premiere franchises. Altogether a landmark event in baseball. Caknuck 00:12, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe the first players banned for life for throwing a game were Jim Devlin, George Hall, Bill Craver, and Al Nichols of the 1877 Louisville Grays. I'm not sure of the timing, but the banning of Lee Magee probably also preceded Shoeless Joe and the rest of the Black Sox; see [7]. BRMo 04:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Article Tagging

User:WatchlistBot has finished tagging baseball articles, with the list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Baseball/Articles. Please let me know if there's anything else I can do to help (like check the categories again and tag new articles at some point in the future). Ingrid 21:29, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Doug Harvey

Doug Harvey has been tagged as being part of the baseball project because it is is in Category:Buffalo Bisons players a category which says it is for a baseball team. It seems like this is a mistake though, since Doug Harvey is a hockey player (who played for a hockey team called the Buffalo Bisons). There may be other hockey players in this category as well. I'm posting to Wikipedia:WikiProject Ice Hockey as well. Perhaps someone from here and/or someone from there could work this out. For now, I've just got Doug Harvey explicitly excluded from tagging by User:WatchlistBot. Ingrid 05:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't there once an umpire named Doug Harvey? I vaguely recall there being one. DandyDan2007 13:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Billy Rogell

I did the Billy Rogell page about six months ago but didn't get any feedback on it. Originally I'd planned to do a whole series, or at least continue my work through a good number of players. Is this what we're looking for here? Because if so I'd definitely be interested in taking time to work on some more baseball pages. Someone drop me a line here or email me: desjardfan@gmail.com

Desjardfan 09:10, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

2007 Major League Baseball season

I have been involved with a dispute with Fahima07 about whether or not the scores of every single game should be listed in that article. After February 28, the actions needed will be taken to the article. Any disagreements may be posted here. Ksy92003 ^{talk·contribs}

Don't Keep All the scores are gonna be on the individual team articles, and it would be a waste of time and space, and it wouldn't be that organized also. Please place your input. Thanks. Ksy92003 ^{talk·contribs}
Do Keep I can't be bothered going to each team article to know the score, might as well have it on one page, just look at the FA Cup 2006-07 Qualifying Rounds page, that has around 1000 games on it but it's still useful.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.145.241.118 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 11 February 2007.

Comment I don't believe that FA Cup 2006-07 Qualifying Rounds is a fair comparison. The teams in the FA Cup don't have their own individual article to show all their games. All 30 MLB teams have their own article for the 2007 season to show all the scores, whereas the FA Cup does not. Ksy92003 ^{talk·contribs}

Don't Keep There are 2,430 regular season games in a MLB season, the article would be forever long. --Holderca1 21:53, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Do not Keep Each page has a 2007 page that can keep track of that team's records. It would just be redundant. — Linnwood (talk) 04:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Do not Keep Its just going to be listing something that is already available at at least one other location.--Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 00:18, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Comment, I have no opinion right now, but if it is to be kept, it should be somehow compressed into the format of the gamelogs in the current team season articles. example --Borgarde^talk 02:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Do not keep, I think it will be a waste of space, even compressed it's extremely long. --Borgarde^talk 04:21, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not keep per WP:NOT. Keeping the scores sounds like making a huge "indiscriminate collection of information" to me. Those who are interested in scores can look into MLB.com if they want. Vic₂₂₆ 04:40, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Do keep The scores would be easily accessable and you don't have to go to each team's article. It doesn't matter if it's too long, you can delete it if you want at the end of the regular season. Fahima07 talk 18:45, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Note Or we could have one page dedicated to one month of games, like how each grand prix has a page of its own in Formula 1. Fahima07 talk 18:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Comment What is the point of putting a lot of information in an article, for 2430 games, if you're just gonna delete it anyway? Does this really make sense? And if there is an agreement to keep this included in 2007 Major League Baseball season, would you really want to be the only one to fill all the games in? Ksy92003 ^{talk·contribs} 19:05, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Do not keep We don't need any game-by-game season records for any team at all. WP:NOT has several references to why to not have this - indiscriminate amount of info, basically news source. It's bad enough people are putting 100+ lines of garbage for the teams season history,. The page will also most likely get too big and violate WP:SIZE, which is a guideline, but still a viable guideline.. Bottom line: There's no need for it. Retropunk 06:46, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

"Caribbean Baseball World Series"

The traduction is wrong. There is no "Caribbean Baseball World Series", but "The Caribbean Series". In Spanish the event is called "La Serie del Caribe", not "La Serie Mundial del Caribe de Béisbol". Someone must fix this.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.45.125.51 (talk • contribs) 12:42, 12 February 2007.

This is correct. A non-admin can't do the move, since Caribbean Series already exists as a redirect. I'll post it to be moved, when I have a minute, or maybe someone else can beat me to it. --Djrobgordon 18:36, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm requesting the move now. --Djrobgordon 22:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Should the template {{CaribbeanWorldSeries}} be altered and the other links be moved? Seeing as the correct name is Caribbean Series? --Borgarde^talk 03:45, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Previously existing teams

It's probably been discussed before, but I find it annoying that teams like the Philadelphia Athletics and St. Louis Browns are listed under their current incarnations. Shouldn't they have separate articles? At the least, it would seem to make the current articles not so long. Hockey has articles for the Minnesota North Stars and Winnipeg Jets, I think baseball ought to be the same way. DandyDan2007 13:47, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

1994 strike year controversy

I'm having a problem on the Atlanta Braves page. An anon user with multiple IP addresses keeps changing the article so that the Braves only have 11 consecutive season division championshps from 14. He/she/it refuses to enage in any discussion at all on the issue, and has reverted several attempts at a compromise that gives both positions. If wyou would like to weigh in on this specific issue, the discussion and details of the problem are on Talk:Atlanta Braves.

I would like to know if the project has dealt with how to handle the strike year and its effects on team records before. Is there a consensus from the project on what to do in these situations? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. - BillCJ 03:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, all fourteen championships were consecutive because at no point in that span did another team hold the title of division champion. For what it's worth, Baseball Reference doesn't credit the Expos with winning the division that year. The Nationals' official website credits the Expos with having the best record in baseball, but not with winning the division crown. [8] The Braves' official site credits them with fourteen consecutive division championships. [9] The anon's edits may be in good faith, but they're not correct. --Djrobgordon 18:27, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the references. I'm going to repost your comments on the Talk:Atlanta Braves page, and try to work the references into the article. Thanks again! - BillCJ 18:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Have a favorite announcer on radio? Please think about being bold and placing a WP:RADIO banner tag on their talkpage

Hello, I am a member of this project and WP:RADIO too. I grew up listening to Vin Scully and Jerry Doggett. I've added a couple of the Dodger (no booing or hissing, please) to the Radio project with the talkpage tag. You can see it on those articles.

It is a real shame that great announcers like Doggett does not have much of an article. Like all the greats, he drew a picture and I remember scoring games as they were announced on radio. Those were the days when you had a program to do boxscores. Just a thought and a tip of the hat to my Dad who started me down this route. Cheers, Ronbo76 13:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Roush Fenway Racing

Any idea if Roush Fenway Racing should be included under this project? While it seems this turn of events will have the largest impact on NASCAR itself, it seems to me that this is going to have an important and extremely notable recognition within Major League Baseball as well, since this is the first time anything like this has happened within any of the so called "four major sports" in America. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 00:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

The article is marked as a baseball stub, I think you'll find that when Watchlistbot updates the articles through the use of categories, this page will be added. I'm not to sure on it's context though, just that if it is marked a baseball stub it will be added automatically. --Borgarde^talk 02:36, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Personally I'm holding that it will gain relevance as it could introduce a new demographic to baseball. --Oni Ookami Alfador^Talk|@ 05:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

This page now automatically archives, discussions that are 28 days without comment are archived into the current archive. I put 28 days because 4 weeks seems a reasonable amount of time to consider a discussion dead. I've also made a link to all the archives in the project to try to organise it a little better, might put it in a table or something later, but for now it's all fine. --Borgarde^talk 03:43, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

2007 MLB team articles

Assessments

The 2007 team pages for the Major League Baseball season, right now they are all more or less at a start level I'd say. Does anyone have opinions on their importance? Low? Mid?

You could say they are mid-importance for the current season, but in the overall project they are low. Just want some opinions before I mark any. Thanks. --Borgarde (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I think mid seems reasonable, as long as they're demoted at the beginning of the 2008 season. I sort of despise season articles, particularly current ones, but they're nonetheless visible, so maintaining them needs to be a priority. Djrobgordon 18:31, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Game Logs

Are we just going to go with one month at a time or are we going to go with an entire season in the article? Also, why do we need to show off days? It take up unnecessary space in the article. Kingjeff 15:28, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

See: WP:Baseball/game log — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 17:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

All Time Rosters

Not sure if this discussion should happen here or at the Players Task Force pages.

I've been trying to clean up links on the All Time Roster pages, and have noticed there is almost no standardization, particularly in what data is included. Some pages only have players with existing wikipedia articles, and no other information. Unfortunately, this makes them a duplicate of the category for that teams' players, which is discouraged by wikipedia. Some rosters include everyone who has been on the 40-man roster, whether they appeared in a game or not, while other rosters restrict the list to those who played in at least one major league game. Also rosters vary as to whether they include the years played and position played.

Any thoughts?--Kathy A. 22:44, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, a player should have played in at least one Major League game to appear on an all-time roster. MLB.com seems ambivalent on the issue. For instance, Preston Larrison, a career minor leaguer on the Tigers 40, is on their official all-time roster, but John Smoltz, who was in the same position twenty years ago, is not. I'll be interested to see what they do with the minor leaguers on this year's 40 if they never play in the majors.

As for the other stuff, I think years are useful, while positions are not. There are many players it'd be difficult to list only one for, and a list of every position a player appeared at could get unwieldy, and wouldn't be particularly informative. Listing Willie Mays as a CF/1B doesn't accurately depict his career. Or if we're just listing one, it would be a pain to have constant debates about whether Craig Biggio should be on the Astros' roster as a 2B or CF. Actually, that one's pretty obvious, but you see what I'm getting at. --Djrobgordon 23:33, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Very good points on the positions. One advantage to restricting the rosters to those who actually played a game would be that everyone on the list is automatically notable - no problems with people thinking they need to make articles for non-notable career minor leaguers.--Kathy A. 00:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I would definitely include the years they actually played at least one game in the majors. Positions could be included, but probably only in the more general sense (ie. P,IF,OF). One argument in favor: you can easily see who was a pitcher. Also I would suggest including some kind of notation if the player is especially notable, such as "MLB-HOF". —Mike 00:10, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

HOF is a good idea, and one that hadn't occurred to me. The P, IF, OF makes sense, too, but what to do with Djrobgordon's example of Craig Biggio? Choose one, or have both IF and OF? (Yes, I do know that Biggio played about 2300 games in the infield, and less than 400 in the outfield, but I'm sure there are other players who played a more equal number of games in each.) --Kathy A. 01:31, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

He actually caught more games than he played in the outfield, so if he would get an OF next to his name, he would be due a C as well, not to mention that is how he broke into the majors. I say put their position as what they are most known for and list that specific position, if they played multiple positions, get more general like OF, IF. How about Alex Rodriguez, obviously if this is by team, it is easy, since he played SS everywhere else and 3B in New York. --Holderca1 14:02, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

If we decide that it's useful to include positions, we could simply set a rule, noted at the top of each roster, that the position indicated is the one that player appeared the most at with that team. If we're really interested in accurately representing multi-position players, we could list any position at which a player appeared at least, say, 1/3 of the time, but I wouldn't want to be the one to do all that math. --Djrobgordon 01:44, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

So to summarize the thoughts so far: include only players who played at least one game for that team, include the years they played for that team, include where they played the most for that team (P, C, IF, OF), and include HOF as appropriate. Also include a paragraph at the beginning of each roster saying who is included.--Kathy A. 16:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Maybe standardizing these rosters would be a good project for the Players task force, either concurrent to the infobox project, or once that's done. --Djrobgordon 21:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Baseball Portal

I'm in the early stages of reviving Portal:Baseball, and it occurred to me that this might be a better place to post a notice than the talk page of a moribund Portal. Ideally, I'd like to have it up and running before opening day. Right now, I'm working on a redesign, since the color scheme and layout make it pretty difficult to read. If anyone's interested, my work in progress is at User:Djrobgordon/sandbox. I realize doing edits in my sandbox isn't the most transparent way of going about it, but I thought it was better than using the real portal for my experiments. Even if you're not interested in being permanently involved in the portal, I'd love some constructive criticism. If you have any comments please leave them at Portal talk:Baseball, rather than my sandbox talk page. That way I won't have to move them there after the redesign is complete.

Ideally, I'd like to have a few other editors help evaluate articles and images to feature on the page, as well as to update the News and Did You Know... sections. I don't particularly mind doing it myself, but it's not really in the spirit of Wikipedia. It seems like the Portal has had two spurts of activity, led by individual editors who abandoned it soon after. I don't plan on abandoning it, but I could get hit by a bus or something.

Thanks for any help you can give. --Djrobgordon 18:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm still working on a few minor things (I'm not really happy with the "Topics" section yet), but for all practical purpose, the redesign is complete and the portal is live. I have it set up to rotate the articles automatically, so it's not a simple matter for someone to help with the coding, but what I could really use is for people to keep an eye out for articles and images that could be featured there. Each section has a "Nomination" link at the bottom where any user can suggest material to be featured. It takes more time to find good material to include than to author the portal itself, so any noms would be a great help. Also, any user can vote for or against a nomination. --Djrobgordon 05:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

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