Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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Contents 1 Tottenham Hotspur - Rating upgrade? 2 Football (soccer) in New South Wales Review Wanted: 3 Swindon Town F.C. 4 Manager statistics, again 5 Move Norwegian Soccer League Champions (Men) 6 Football in London 7 Average attendances 8 Wikipedia:WikiProject The Football League: Season-By-Season 9 The definition of UEFA Intertoto Cup winner 10 AFC Bournemouth 11 List of football (soccer) teams sponsored by Nike 12 The Bhoys from Seville 13 Football article improvement drive 14 New category 15 "Greatest" claims 16 Position of managers in infobox 17 Youth Section concerning players from teams with B/C/youth teams 18 Athletic Bilbao and Copa del Rey 19 Flagicon in templates 20 Categories for, say, Champions League winner 21 GWLD or GWDL? 22 Bolding players with international caps in the squad list 23 Tinsley Lindley 24 Help! Hassle at Berliner FC Dynamo 25 Soviet Union/USSR 26 "Move war" imminent at Football (soccer) 27 FA drive 28 Superga air disaster 29 National squad template 30 Admin request 31 english editors 32 Paul Benson 33 Euro Championship templates 34 WP:FOOTBALL redirect keeps getting changed 35 Johan Cruijff 36 Lets standardize national team templates 36.1 Types of national team squad templates 36.1.1 All squads from most recent federation championship (EURO, Asia Cup, etc) 36.1.2 Champions from most recent federation championship 36.1.3 All squads from most recent Confederations Cup 36.1.4 Champions from most recent Confederations Cup 36.1.5 All squads from all federations championships 36.1.6 Champions from all federations championships 36.1.7 All squads from all Confederations Cups 36.1.8 Champions from all Confederations Cups 36.2 Comments 37 Ipswich Town F.C. 38 Notability of English soccer clubs 39 Pelé's infobox (goals) 40 Categorizing players 41 SAFC and abbreviations in general 42 "Champions" or "champions"? 43 New Featured Article 44 Football rivalries - duplication of info. 45 Ultras and List of ultras groups 46 List of England international footballers 47 List of "D" Football Squads 48 1951 Copa Rio 49 Creation of WikiProject Football task forces 50 magic spray 51 Defunct or not defunct? 52 Hard breaks in infobox 53 Racism in football 54 Back Fc 55 Archiving of talk page 56 "Ratings garbage"

[edit] Tottenham Hotspur - Rating upgrade?

The article is currently rated as B class but I think that the article is much better than a B rating. It's about time we re-rated this. So what shall we give it now? Govvy 13:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

As I'm a Gooner feel free to take this with a pinch of salt - but I don't think it's beyond B-class right now. The quality scale says A-class demands "A fairly complete treatment of the subject" but there's not much detail about the stadium, crest or colours. And the history is a bit too recentist and lacking specific citations for it to reach GA status, in my opinion. Qwghlm 14:01, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Heh, you are right, it does need need details on the stadium, crest and colours. I feel it needs more photo's in the article also. Maybe it's not the rating but the importance of the article that needs upgrading!! I shall bring it up on the talk page. cheers. Govvy 14:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the article has too few information about the 1950s and 1960s, compared with the other decades. And that the history section should be divided in more sub-sections. The current season takes too much space and the article needs more notes. It's a very good article, but not beyond B-class. Fregonassi 06:09, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I still feel this is a GA class article. The history has been improved, there is sub article on the stadium, got some info on the crest and kit in the history section. Care to have a vote on improving the rating to GA? Govvy 12:55, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Good Articles have their own assessment process: Good Article Candidates. However, as it is now a nomination of the article would most likely fail due to scarcity of inline citations - lots of books are listed, but it is not clear where any of them are used. This could be remedied by using the {{cite book}} template in appropriate places. If you want help or more feedback, drop a note on my talk page or perhaps start up a peer review. Oldelpaso 18:21, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Oldelpaso, what do you think of the standard of the article now? Govvy 12:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Football (soccer) in New South Wales Review Wanted:

Jus wanted someone to review, suggest ideas, check, etc {Santiago26 05:17, 15 February 2007 (UTC)}

[edit] Swindon Town F.C.

I would be grateful if some kind soul would have a looksee at the Swindon article and give me a suggestion on layout and also possibly help improve the prose in the history section.

At the moment the layout is a bit haphazard, with prose here and there and the history section is a heavily snipped extract from the main History of Swindon Town F.C. article, and as such reads like someone hammering facts into your head.

Oh and if anyone wants to assess it as well, be my guest. Cheers - Foxhill 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thats pretty good what you got so far, my suggestion would put the "Other teams" section in a new article titled "Swindon Town F.C. Reserves & Academy" Govvy 15:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

This is the third request in a row. Perhaps people could post such requests at WP:PR instead? Punkmorten 15:42, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I considered placing it for Peer Review but with areas of the article such as History, Colours, Supporters and others all needing major re-work; decided against it especially as the article is not in a stable state yet. I also considered WP:FEED but felt the subject matter would be too narrow for a response. This is why I placed the request here - Foxhill 15:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Go for feedback if not PR. Articles are meant to be readable by both experts and non-experts alike. Narrowness of field is not a big issue. Btw it's not too bad, needs a some tweaks and changes but the core of it is a decent enough article. Qwghlm 16:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I've left some comments on the talk page. Looks sufficiently well-developed to go on peer review. Oldelpaso 20:20, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all for your comments, they are much appreciated. I hope to have the article at a stage I would feel comfortable with for Peer Review within the next couple of weeks or so. I will reply to comments on the talk page later today, again - Many many thanks - Foxhill 12:33, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Manager statistics, again

Forwarding a question from Forbsey on Talk:Rangers F.C., are manager statistics on club articles, e.g. Rangers F.C.#Team managers, domestic league matches only? Archibald99  19:41, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Arsenal F.C.#Managers includes league, cup and European matches (inc. Charity Shield/Super Cup games) in the table. If the stats are available I don't see why they shouldn't. Qwghlm 23:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move Norwegian Soccer League Champions (Men)

The article listing the winners of the Norwegian Premier League is currently named Norwegian Soccer League Champions (Men). I want to move this page to something resembling the two Featured Articles we have, English football champions and Swedish football champions. The problem is that, unlike in England and Sweden and probably most other countries, it is not the winners of the league in Norway but the winners of the cup who are "Norwegian football champions" and so using this name for an article about the league winners would be misleading. I'm leaning towards Norwegian Premier League champions; the article could also be named Norwegian football league champions, although I think this name is too similar to "Norwegian football champions" and might cause some confusion. Any thoughts on this matter? --Léman 00:03, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest having Norwegian football champions as a disambiguation page, explaining the situation in Norway, and linking to Norwegian football league champions and Norwegian football cup champions. Good or bad? – Elisson • T • C • 15:16, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Football in London

I've put some work into the Football in London article in recent days, any assitance would be appreciated. I'm hoping to 'wikify' all the clubs linked to from this article, so as to include the standard information table, and the link box at the bottom of the page to other teams in the division. Please come along and help! Grunners 15:47, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Average attendances

I was considering putting average league attendances for the 2006-7 season (calculated from Soccerbase) into an article (along with a percentage of the ground's capacity). Would you say there's enough value to make it worthwhile? If so, would you include it in the stadium article or the club article? (Preferably not both.) - Dudesleeper · Talk 23:47, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a worthwhile addition to a club's article when mentioning the fanbase/supporters to give figures, especially to show changing support over the years. I've found that the soccer-stats.com figures[1] are quite useful in that respect as they go back to 1992-93 for the four English Divisions and the SPL, although you may find the capacity is mis-reported and so have to recalculate from their figures. In my opinion I'd keep it in the club article unless it's a record attendance for the stadium as a lot of stadiums hold other events such as concerts, rallies and even double as Speedway or greyhound tracks. - Foxhill 00:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I'll bear in mind the possibly mis-reported capacities, though that site may have correctly stated Blackpool's as 9,612, whereas another source had it at 9,000 (and I find the chances of its being a round number unlikely). As such, I changed the stadium article accordingly. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:07, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject The Football League: Season-By-Season

This WikiProject has recently been created, so it probably should be inserted into the navbox alongside the A-League and Non-league projects. I have to say, I'm not entirely sure of it's purpose - until the Premiership split in 1992-93 all there was to professional football was the football league, so I don't understand why we need seperate articles for it alongside the present season articles. HornetMike 15:12, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The definition of UEFA Intertoto Cup winner

The definition of UEFA Intertoto Cup winner has not been defined, let's discuss about it. kYLE RaymonD GIGGS 17:39, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] AFC Bournemouth

My attention has been drawn to the large number of articles referring to A.F.C. Bournemouth that link to Bournemouth F.C. an amateur club based at Victoria Park who have never been a league club. I have fixed a whole bunch of league seasons records but it would be helpful if editors could keep an eye open for others that should go to A.F.C. Bournemouth. BlueValour 02:57, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to let you know that I think I have now tracked down and edited all the links that point to Bournemouth F.C. rather than A.F.C. Bournemouth. The problem comes when using the {{subst:fc|Bournemouth}} template which will automatically point to Bournemouth F.C.; using {{subst:afc|Bournemouth}} gets round the problem, albeit via a re-direct. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Alternatively, people could just type [[A.F.C. Bournemouth]], which is shorter then typing {{subst:afc|Bournemouth}} :) Gasheadsteve 12:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

subst:fc is good for tables, and nice if you want a piped link. Punkmorten 15:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Or you just do what I do and ignore the templates for Bournemouth and use [[A.F.C. Bournemouth|Bournemouth]].. WikiGull 16:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of football (soccer) teams sponsored by Nike

What do people think? Listcruft? A genuinely useful list? I've done a bit of cleanup and although inclined weakly to nom for deletion I thought I'd ask the opinion of people here first. Qwghlm 08:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Seems fairly pointless to me, also the title seems misleading. Presumably by "sponsored by" it means "kit manufactured by" - if you asked people to name Man Utd's sponsors, for instance, I'm sure everyone would say AIG..... ChrisTheDude 09:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
• I think it's fairly pointless. HornetMike 09:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I could've sworn this had already been deleted following an AfD. Oldelpaso 21:24, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

near enough. {{db-repost}}? Oldelpaso 21:30, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

• Delete the sucker. Timpcrk87 02:23, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Bhoys from Seville

What are the opinions on this article? I personally think it should be moved to 2003 UEFA Cup final and restructured to give a more universal view on the subject. Archibald99  20:04, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to point out a mistake. It says that there was not one single arrest. I know there was at least one, one Celtic fan stabbed another Celtic fan. And I am sure that i've read that there were more.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Allanmac9 (talk • contribs) 02:49, 8 April 2007.

[edit] Football article improvement drive

I want to bring up the decreasing activity at the football article improvement drive. The earlier success of the collaborations of this drive led to many featured articles. I encourage everyone to contribute to the current article, nominate articles, and vote on nominations in order to increase the activity and success of this article improvement drive back to its previous level. Timpcrk87 02:30, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the level of participation is poor. I admit I have ceased to vote and only recently worked on a collaboration, doing a bit of clean-up on Birmingham City. I wasn't really able to add new content, though. One problem is the sort of thing we're nominating. I have absolutely no clue how I could possibly contribute to Valdir Pereira (Didi) this week, other than to do clean-up. I see Liverpool and Coventry City are nominated at present - I could peer review them quite easily, but I'm not sure I could add much. HornetMike 13:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Liverpool F.C. is the new selection, which is a drive for FA level - peer review type comments are just what are needed. It is no coincidence that the three former collaborations which have since gained FA status are broad topics with wide appeal. Biographies rarely gain much attention, unless it is someone truly iconic internationally such as Pele or Ferenc Puskás. This week the selected article got less edits all week than it took to update the AID with a new selection. Oldelpaso 13:55, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

Toulouse F.C. also had a poor level of participation. I think that the improvement drive should focus more on the international level articles, like major european clubs and famous players, because improvement drive is working fine for them. About the last week selected article, when I indicated Valdir Pereira (Didi) I thought some Fenerbahçe and Real Madrid fans would contribute more about his time playing/managing the clubs. About his carreer in Brazil, I think I can cover a good part of it (just need to have time and get my computer back to add some things I planned to add). Fregonassi 16:34, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Nominations wanted - The article improvement drive is currently without a single nomination. Suggestions of needy articles are welcome. Oldelpaso 14:18, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New category

I've created a category entitled People who died before the age of 50, and I think it would be useful in football-personnel articles. As I mentioned on the category's talk page, I perceive 50 as being a young age at which to pop your clogs, especially when, in the world of the beautiful game, some individuals (Stanley Matthews, for example) have played past that age. - Dudesleeper · Talk 07:10, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm up to Peter Dubovský in Footballers who died before retiring. There are still 46 others. - Dudesleeper · Talk 07:28, 4 March 2007 (UTC) - Dudesleeper · Talk 17:26, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Greatest" claims

Several articles, including Pele, Maradona and Johan Cruijff claim that they are "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time". The same claim has been in the George Best article. Recently a few editors (who I suspect are the same person) have been removing this from the Best article. The claim is well referenced in the Best article, with referenced quotes from Pele, Maradona and others.

What are people's opinions on this? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:49, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Stubacca I am afraid you are a bit biased. The 'references' you have are feeble at best and so is your allegation that one individual is haunting you. This label "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time" should be used very carefully. Pele, Maradona and Cruyff are worthy of that label + perhaps a few more (should be researched). Many other splinter groups may feel their favorite footballer deserves that accolade as well, but one should remain very careful. I believe Zinedine Zidane and Michel Platini belong there, but I want more evidence before I would edit. The Best fans are such a splinter group.

1. A British interviewer has recorded that Maradona has said that George Best was his idol. This may be true - only one source though and it was a quote embedded in a story. I have heard Maradona talk about Best, but more in a sense that he could identify himself with the maverick, self destruction, and absolute football talent (that Best certainly had) married into one. Also 2. Pele mentions George Best in his list of 125 greatest living footballers, a list that his received a lot criticism for politically correct picking etc (am not saying that Best shouldn't be on that list - I think he should be) 3. From time to time, exclusively in British media it seems, one sees this hearsay quote from Pele where he endorses Best as the greatest footballer ever. Not only is this a poorly sourced quote it is very probably not even true and he has never said words to that effect or meant it in that way - blown out of context. Pele mentions Best merely twice in his autobiography, both mentions are drink-related but he does describe him as a 'Latin footballer'. 4. In numerous all time polls FIFA, IFFHS, France Football etc etc Best consistently does not even make the top 10.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Le Professeur70 (talk • contribs).

(edit conflict with above)Firstly, I'm not sure what you mean about "haunting"? I agree the claim "regarded by many as one of the greatest footballers of all time" should be used carefully. But I believe the references given justify the insertion of the claim in Best article. If the claim was removed from all articles I wouldn't have a problem. It is the fact that it is included in some, and not in others where evidence to back up the claim is given, which I disagree with. Regarding your four points above:

1. The interview states "Who was his own footballing hero? - 'George Best. He's my idol'". That is all it says, nothing about self destruction or anything else is mentioned, so you're assuming that.
2. I'm not sure what point you're making?
3. It sourced from the BBC. I'm not sure how this can be dismissed as poorly sourced?
4. Yes, he is missing from some top ten polls as well, but that polls are only one issue.

My point is that enough evidence exists to make the claim. But making the claim in any article is expressing a point of view. Maybe the claim should be deleted from all articles.

By the way, some of your comments above could be seen as breaching WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 14:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

My two cents on this:

1. The phrase "regarded by many as..." should never be in any article about any footballer as they are weasel words. I think zero-tolerance is the best way forward, to avoid any of the subjective arguing here, so it should be taken out of all the articles - Pele, Maradona and Cruyff included - in favour of truly verifiable assertions.
2. The Maradona quote is directly sourced from him in an interview, albeit one with a British journalist, which is dated and verifiable. As he is directly quoted and in context, I think the reference given is reliable enough.
3. The Pele quote is a lot more dubious - although it is a BBC article it is only mentioned in passing, not directly quoted. Unless a direct and verifiable reference to the quote, and preferably the full interview in which Pele says so, can be provided, it should be excised. Qwghlm 14:56, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Would you support the claim being removed in all of the articles it is in? I disagree that the Pele quote should be removed. A link to the actual interview would be preferable, but the BBC has to be one of the most reliable sources available. Their editorial policy is published and explicitly mentions fact checking. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:23, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Nobody's perfect, and that applies to the BBC. The claim is uncited and does not give any detail as to when and to whom Pele said it, which makes it unverifiable. The George Best article as it stands implies, with its use of the quotation marks, that it was Pele's esact wording, when he isn't even directly quoted in the BBC article.

A little bit of Googling doesn't really bring anything more concrete up, apart from a couple of articles which quote Best as saying "Pele called me the greatest footballer in the world. That is the ultimate salute to my life" - but that's using Best as a primary source, not Pele. If it's true you'd think it would be easy to prove by finding the original quote. And surely Pele's own autobiography would mention Best more, if he really believed he was the best player in the world. Qwghlm 16:06, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

By that reasoning you could call any source unreliable! The BBC reference is reliable secondary source I feel. I can't see anything in the policy to say otherwise.

On the subject of stating anyone is the greatest, my feeling is all of these claims should be removed. Anyone else agree? Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:20, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not saying the BBC as a whole is unreliable, just that what it says cannot be taken as gospel or set in stone. The article is not a news article but a feature puff piece, and does not directly quote Pele or give in any way any information that we could verify the claim with. Incidentally, in this article from 2005 Pele compares himself to Di Stefano, Sivori and Maradona when considering the best player in the world, but not at all to Best.

In the absence of a direct quote I think the line should be "and it is reported that Pele considered him the greatest footballer in the world", rather than the misleading way it is printed now. Qwghlm 09:43, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm happy with that, I've edited the article accordingly. Thanks for your advice. I'll wait to see if there is any further input on the other "greatest" claims. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 10:33, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

One thing that this conversation has taught me is that the George Best article is in a very bad way. The section about his career has only 3 paragraphs about his time at Manchester Utd, with most of that prose being about Best being dubbed "the fifth Beatle". Why would anyone believe that he was one of the greatest footballers ever from reading that?! There is far more written about his alcoholism, illness, death and memorials!!! Are they really more important? Each of those should be reduced to a paragraph or so, and his footballing career needs expanding to at least 3 times the size.

The Wikiquote page is also woeful. aLii 11:22, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I've removed these kind of claims from several different articles over the last few days. A rele vant section from WP:NPOV:

A simple formulation Alternatively: assert facts, including facts about opinions — but do not assert the opinions themselves. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." For example, that a survey produced a certain published result would be a fact. That there is a planet called Mars is a fact. That Plato was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can. By value or opinion, on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There are bound to be borderline cases where we are not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band in history is a value or opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion.

On the subjuct of Best's article, I don't think it is in that bad a shape. Certainly the section of his footballing career needs expanding though. His "celebrity", alcoholism, illness and death are - unfortunately - notable, and a big part of why he was so well known. One the footballing sections are expanded the focus/emphasis on the these sections won't be as strong. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:31, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

My view is that anything Pele says about any player/team should be taken with a pinch of salt. Despite being an incrdible footballer, Pele seems to have praised almost every half-decent player in recent memory - remember this is the man who thought Paul Scholes would be the star player of the 2002 World Cup! Blogdroed 20:15, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Any quote should be taken with a pinch of salt. It's someone's opinion, not truth. But Pele's quotes are as relevant as any other player's.

Another relevant relevant policy to this in general is Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 12:25, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Pele, Maradona, Johan Cruijff, Best, etc are regarded by many as some of the greatest players of all time. If it can be vertified then keep the information in the article. It isn't POV for two reasons 1) the word "regarded" 2) the phrase "one of the".

None of the articles say for example; "X player is the greatest of all time" (as there is no way to really prove who is the #1 greatest of all time) but if they are widely regarded (and citations can be provided) to be one of the greatest, then keep it in there. - Deathrocker 12:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you read WP:NPOV and WP:WEASEL? These policies prohibit these type of claims. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Stu, please stop your cruzade of removing what you consider POV until an agreement is met. Saying in your edits to look at this talk page doesn't give a good reason for them, since here there's not consensus on the subject. Please, leave things as they were until it is settled that those comments must be removed. --Mariano(t/c) 14:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Labelling my editing as a "crusade" is misrepresenting my actions. I'm following two important policies - WP:NPOV and WP:WEASEL. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 14:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No, you are following your own interpretation of those articles, against all voices calling you to talk before acting. --Mariano(t/c) 17:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I am talking. I've fully explained my actions several times. And I have stopped editing the articles until an outcome is reached. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 17:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Stubacca's changes. Claims are okay if and only if attributed. "John Doe is the best flute player<ref>[2007 FooBar internet poll]</ref>" is not acceptable, but "John Doe is the best flute player according to a 2007 FooBar internet poll" is. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:16Z

I'm copying Quarl's replies from the Maradona talk page here, they summarise the issue well:

Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:29, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The following site lists a cumulation of noteworthy "player of the century" lists created by media/expert polls. There are 11 total, and of those 11, 6 of them actually rank the players in order rather than listing them alphabetically or as a top 11 for a football side. In all 6 of the polls that actually rank the players, Pele is ranked #1. To me, this removes the POV element from the claim that Pele is "widely regarded" as the greatest football player of all-time. When you add in "athlete of the century" award from the IOC, player of the century from the BBC and L'Equipe, it is just about a consensus with the FIFA Internet fan poll the only contrary viewpoint. In any case, this claim is supported by a variety of media/expert rankings from around the world so I would argue that it is substantiated. I don't know if you feel that it should be attributed , e.g., "experts widely regard Pele as the greatest footballer of all-time" or "Pele is widely regarded as the greatest player of all-time", with a footnote to the rsssf page, but I think the evidence is there to move it out of the POV category. Oh yeah, here's the link: http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/bestbest.html Ronnymexico 13:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, just the actual achievement/rank/quote should be stated. See above. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 13:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Not exactly following but I will try to conform an edit to what I think you're saying. Ronnymexico 14:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

To give an example of what I mean, see this diff. The artice originally stated that Maradona is "widely regarded as one of the greatest footballers of all time". There were two references given for this claim, one was the FIFA Player of the Century poll and the other a quote from Eric Cantona. As you'll see from the diff I changed this to reflect what the references actually say. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:04, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I removed it from the heading and placed the statement and attribution under the "honors" section, which I think is probably more appropriate. I tend to question the worthiness of Cantona's opinion of Maradona v. Pele, particularly iat the top of the Maradona article, but that's neither here nor there. Ronnymexico 15:22, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw the changes on the Pele article. I left some comments on the Pele talk page. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 15:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Position of managers in infobox

I've noticed that some people put a former player's position to be Manager (former Midfielder), for example, in the infoboxes. My view is that position refers to the position they played in, and if they are currently a manager of a club, then that can go in the club number bit of the box. Am tempted to just change a couple that I've spotted just now, but thought this might be worth wider discussion and a consensus on how to deal with this. WikiGull 21:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree completely, and this is something I always try to fix. I think there needs to be a new, optional, 'job' field. Without that, it should go in the club field, with a br/ if necessary. ArtVandelay13 21:59, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

Could this not be resolved by changing the field title in the infobox from Position to Playing position?

Also - discussions regarding the content/layout of the infobox should be on the infobox talkpage. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to put it there as well, just thought it better here so more people can see what I'm suggesting. WikiGull 08:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youth Section concerning players from teams with B/C/youth teams

Really small (perhaps pointless?) thing, but some players (Cesc Fàbregas is a good example) who come from clubs such as Barcelona have Barça B/C under their youth section and in the main article, when of course they never actually played for the B team. So should under youth teams be either: A general "FC Barcelona Youth System", the actual youth section they got to at the club (for Cesc: "FC Barcelona Cadete A"), or something like "La Masia". The same applies for the Barça B/C pages, under famous players they mention players who have never (or not yet) played for B/C, should there be a general Barcelona (and other teams) Youth section which goes (in Barcelona's case) from Infantil A/B to Barça B. Cheers, Fran 5 March 2007

I'd say that if they did play for the B or C teams then leaving it as those would be fine. Otherwise simply stating "FC Barcelona" would make more sense. aLii 11:30, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Athletic Bilbao and Copa del Rey

There is an ongoing dispute at the above articles. The dispute centers around the first Copa del Rey in 1902 and whether it should be included as an Athletic Bilbao win. Myself and another editor User: Deibid believe that it should be. However a third editor User: BarcelonaMarc is constantly reediting the articles to reflect differently. The Copa was won by Club Vizcaya which is not disputed. However Club Vizcaya is not a separate club from Athletic, but rather an alternative name. Several clubs including FC Barcelona, Real Madrid, Real Sociedad and RCD Espanyol and Real Unión have won the Copa del Rey under different names. All trophies won under their various names are included in one list. So why should the Athletic record be different ?

Below is a timeline which explains the early history of Athletic. [5]

• Early 1890s: Bilbao FC formed by British workers.
• 1898: Basque students returning from UK form Athletic Club.
• 1902: Above two teams enter combined team known as Club Vizcaya in Copa del Rey.
• 1903: These two teams merge and form Athletic Club Bilbao
• 1907: The Club Vizcaya name is revived as Athletic Club de Bilbao and Union Vizcaino entered another combined team in the Copa del Rey.

The 1902 Copa is included in Athletic’s own honours list [6] and the trophy is in their museum [7]. The eleven Club Vizcaya players who played in the final - L. Arana, E Careaga, P. Larranga, L. Silva, A. Arana, Goiri, Cazeaux, Astorquia, W. Dyer, R. Silva, W. Evans - are all included in an archive of former Athletic players [8].

I believe the above clearly shows that Club Vizcaya was simply a name used by Athletic Bilbao and is not a separate club. A similar situation occurred in 1909 when Real Sociedad used the name Club Ciclista. However User: BarcelonaMarc has chosen to ignore all this evidence. He argues that Club Vizcaya is a different club but offers no evidence to prove this. I do not believe BarcelonaMarc is acting objectively or that he can be considered as an independent. On his own user page he describes himself as an FC Barcelona fan. If the 1902 Copa is credited to Athletic then it would mean that Athletic and FC Barcelona share the amount of Copa wins. I believe that BarcelonaMarc must begrudge sharing and that is why he continues to revert edits. I would appreciate it if other editers could offer their opionions and/or help resolve this issue as it has been ongoing for sometime and BarcelonaMarc will not listen to reason. Djln--Djln --Djln 00:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so certain that this is as cut and dried as you're trying to make out. In 1902 Vizcaya was not Athletic Bilbao, but two seperate teams. The change is not the same as a name change from Madrid to Real Madrid. I suggest listing 23 titles for Bilbao, as it is currently, and tidying up the note about Vizcaya. On the Bilbao page I think that you could use something along the lines of:

Copa del Rey:

• As Club Vizcaya: 1902. 1
• As Athletic Bilbao: 1903, 1904, 1910, 1911, 1914, 1915, 1916, 1921, 1923, 1930, 1931, 1932, 1933, 1943, 1944, 1945, 1950, 1955, 1956, 1958, 1969, 1973, 1984. 23

aLii 11:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

These two seperate clubs merged to become Athletic Bilbao. Can anybody explain why Athletic Bilbao include the 1902 Copa in their honours then.Djln--Djln 12:07, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably because it's something to list. Heck, Liverpool list their Lancashire League win and Reserve League victories. aLii 12:25, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Have you actually read the timeline above or the history of Athletic. Your not really helping resolve this situation. The Liverpool example is irrelevant, you cannot compare a local regional league to a national trophy. Djln 13:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Also, Liverpool didn't win those honours under a different name ChrisTheDude 13:47, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The point was because it's something to list. Nothing to do with names. Yes I have read the timeline. In 1902 there was no Athletic Bilbao. In 1903 there was. It was not "a change of name", but a merger of two seperate clubs, which later split again into two teams. I think it should all be listed in the history of Athletic Bilbao, but all of your argument is based upon what Bilbao claim for themselves. The Spanish FA apparently don't count it as a Bilbao victory, or at least I haven't seen you dispute BarcelonaMarc's claim. aLii 14:06, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

The Copa del Rey is administered by the RFEF, isn't it? Then it follows we should follow their official classification (or else we break WP:OR and WP:SOAP). The article states (though without a reference yet) that the RFEF do not consider Vizcaya and Athletic to be the same club.

To me, it seems ridiculous to me that a club can claim to have won a trophy before it was officially established, so unless the RFEF have retroactively awarded the 1902 title to Athletic Bilbao, then it should be considered that of Vizcaya. Qwghlm 14:42, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• The club was officially established in 1898, being the second oldest in Spain, so it is NOT ridiculous. The cup is in the club's museum. What else is needed? David 16:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

All that's needed is an official acknowledgment from the authority in charge of the competition (i.e. RFEF) that Athletic Bilbao have been recognized as 1902 winners. Athletic Bilbao may claim it as a trophy but they as a unified club did not exist until 1903 (being two separate clubs before that), and in any case it's not up to them to decide who the official winner is. Qwghlm 16:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

• Well if dates are going to be deciding the issue, why does the RFEF, not founded until 1909, get to decide who can claim a trophy played for in 1902, seven years before it was founded. All the RFEF has done is simply list the contemporary names of teams that won the competition. Nobody has shown me any evidence that the RFEF has declared Club Vizcaya a separate club. Why ? Because there is none. I’ve shown clear evidence that they have a common history. In addition Real Sociedad [9] claim the 1909 Copa which they won as Club Ciclista and Real Union claim the 1913 Copa which was won by a predecessor club [10]. So are all these clubs wrong ? I would have thought that one of competitions first participants and organisers would have a stronger say and should be given precedence over a body that was'nt even founded until seven years later. In this case I would argue that Athletic is a more official source then the RFEF. Also isn’t possession nine tenths of the law and Athletic have the trophy in their museum, and the RFEF does not seems to have challenged their right to include it on their honours list. Djln--Djln 22:19, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Athletic Bilboa is the legitimate inheritor of the tradition of Club Vizcaya. They have a right to claim the title and a matching duty acknowledge their predecessor. aLii's solution, which clearly and simply lists the facts of the situation, works and is one that I've used more than once when writing about German clubs where this type of situation crops up frequently and is exacerbated by circumstance of traditional clubs playing under alternate identities in East Germany or under wartime conditions, for example. The irony is that this sort of thing adds colour to an article about a club and should go as an interesting tidbit rather than something to squabble over. Wiggy! 01:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Flagicon in templates

Is it part of the Project now? I've seen several anons and at least one user adding flags in players/managers templates. —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 03:36, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Comment - This matter has recently, albeit inconclusively, been discussed here. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categories for, say, Champions League winner

Not sure if this is the right place to post this, but I imagine those involved with this project will be most aware if the topic has come up for discussion before. Is there any reason why starting a category for players who have won the Champions League would be a bad idea? Personally I'd find it useful, but thought I'd double check first. KeithD 10:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This will lead to Category overcrowding. It would be far easier be handled as a list, which would also give additional information. Agathoclea 10:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. I've made List of UEFA Champions League Winning Players KeithD 19:32, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely this is more appropriate for a category (as per your original suggestion) rather than a list, unless you can add more value than just a list of names? I'd expand to include those players who won the European Cup before it was renamed as well. - fchd 19:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I would include years won, club(s) won with, and number of wins, which it could also be grouped by. Adding European Cup winners is also essential. ArtVandelay13 20:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

This list is not meant to include European Cup (pre-"Champions League") winners, correct? --ChaChaFut 17:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added the European Cup winners. That either means that the article needs to be renamed, or the European Cup winners split off to another list. I'd say it's probably best as a single list. Beyond that, I'm not sure what the best way to organise it is. KeithD 18:03, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GWLD or GWDL?

Hi, I just thought i'd bring up this minor problem with managerial statistics in managers articles. Should the format be "Games Won Lost Drawn" or "Games Won Drawn Lost". The argument for the GWLD layout is that soccerbase, the main provider of managerial stats, gives it out like this, so it is easier to update the stats. The argument for the GWDL layout is that it is the conventional way that is usually used. What do you guys think? -- Mattythewhite 16:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

GWDL for me. I'm a traditionalist at heart! HornetMike 16:27, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

GWDL, always. I've never understood how people reasoned when they created the GWLD layout. – Elisson • T • C • 16:31, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure many other sports commonly use WLD (usually T, not D, though). Lexicon (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

American Football and Baseball both use WLT because ties are so rare. Every league table I've ever seend has used WDL. Tompw (talk) 16:41, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

In tables I've seen from before WW2, Pld-W-L-D-F-A-Pts seems to be the norm, but since then I haven't seen that used (at least in England) at all. As it's what I've grown up with, Pts as the last column always seems right to me as well. - fchd 16:43, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Should be W-D-L . I've only seen the other way in U.S. reports, but i'm curious, Where did you see those early tables, Richard? --ChaChaFut 16:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Mainly where the AFS Annuals reprinted tables from long-gone days, but I've just opened the Sunday Chronicle Football Annual for 1949-50, and all the league tables shown there (League, non-league & Scottish) go Pld-W-L-D-GF-GA-Pts. It's the same in the same publication for the following season, but the FA Yearbook for 50-51 uses what would now be the familiar format. - fchd 17:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

GWDL, simply because of the mass of information I've seen which places the information in that order, anything else just seems somewhat perverse to my head! Robotforaday 10:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bolding players with international caps in the squad list

A contributor to Liverpool F.C. recently added bold to the names of those players who have international caps in the squad list. My personal opinion is that the information is not particularly relevant, and that it makes the squad list look a mess, but it was suggested on the talk page maybe it could be taken here for discussion - I'd be interested in other people's opinions: perhaps this really is a desirable introduction into football team articles, communicating an important piece of information succinctly? Robotforaday 10:48, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone did it on Watford's page a while back. I think it's alright, and isn't especially ugly. HornetMike 11:03, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure how important the information is, but it's certainly somewhat interesting. aLii 11:06, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the correlation between a domestic squad and its national-team representatives. An Internationals section, with a notation and footnote such as Current Liverpool player, would make more sense to me. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd lean towards not including the information, but don't feel particularly strongly about it. For instance Robbie Fowler, while an international, hasn't been capped for five years. Bolding makes it look like it is of significant importance to the makeup of the squad. If it is to be included I'd rather it was something less in-your-face, such as an asterisk. Oldelpaso 11:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I must confess, it was me that did it for Watford, because only a few Watford players have international caps. I didn't do it for Liverpool/Arsenal/Chelsea/Man U because most of their players are capped, so please decide amongst yourselves what to do. My idea is to do it for clubs of second tier or lower. as they will be a significant few. Cheers, к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:05, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, just spotted something. Coventry have an international section with current players, so maybe that should be utilised. It looks good, and doesn't clutter the article. I vouch for that. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 12:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

And an editor added those beautiful flags to every name instead of just the nation heading. Always loved that. - Dudesleeper · Talk 12:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Umm... a LOT of Liverpool players, past and present, have represented their country. We're talking a very long list... not sure how workable that is going to be at a time when the article is being made more streamline. Besides, the article is about Liverpool F.C., not about the international teams. Details about individual player's Liverpool careers are included on their player bios. Robotforaday 12:56, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

It looks ugly in my opinion and not particularly useful, particularly given the Fowler example above. I'd get rid of it for consistency's sake. Qwghlm 12:14, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Remove it all. I don't really see the point in including it. – Elisson • T • C • 15:15, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tinsley Lindley

The article on Tinsley Lindley states "he scored 15 international goals in just 13 games" which is supported by his profile at www.englandfootballonline.com [11]

His profile at www.englandfc.com[12] credits him with 14 goals in 13 appearances.

Finally, TheFA.com gives his record as 13 goals from 13 games.[13]

Can anyone supply a definitive answer?

I have raised a similar query on the talk page for the article 1885-86 in English football about one of the "missing goals" Daemonic Kangaroo 14:34, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Cris Freddi's "England Football Fact Book" from 1991, gives him 14 goals from the 13 games, but implies there is some doubt in his goalscoring record with the statement "He scored in 7 England matches without a break (probably not the 9 usually credited)". Several "facts" from individual games in the 19th century were reported differently in various publications of time with the result that, again quoting Cris, "The bottom line is that in the absence of film, there are times when we'll never know for sure" - fchd 15:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Help! Hassle at Berliner FC Dynamo

I need some help in dealing with User:Nadia Kittel who persists in making poor edits to this page and various others. This has been an on-going problem that has included posting of spam external links, deletion of external English-language links, posting of unsourced images, posting of incorrect material, and one petty edit after another, all wrapped up in a refusal in anyway to respond to entries on his talk page or the talk pages of the articles he edits. He's also demonstrated a gift for bizarre formating turning simple lists into unmanageable columns and at one point he had the BFC page looking like this:[14] and its been an on-going struggle to keep the article from being turned into a fan page, hoolgan/Ultras central, or shrine to the former DDR. He won't respond to posts in English or his native German from any other editor and has often deleted or immediately archived talk items that don't suit him. Doesn't think twice about carrying on under various IPs. He's overwritten image files with his own inaccurate versions. He's dumped material copy edited for correct English for his own poorly translated stuff (if anyone can make out the caption to the Mielke picture currently posted, you deserve a prize).

I've posted looking for help elsewhere, but am not getting anywhere (i.e. no responses in general forums) so I'm hoping I can find other editors or an admin with an interest in football who may be better motivated to help bring this guy around or lay a block on him (he's been blocked before for his unfriendly approach). I'd rather be back at creating new articles or editing existing stuff to help improve things, but instead I'm sucked into a stupid edit war and will end up taking a bullet for it sooner or later. We're down now to stuff that's more trivial in nature than where it was weeks ago, but I'm tired of the guy's months-long pattern of obnoxious behavior. And frustrated. Help! Wiggy! 17:18, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll keep my eyes open. Note that both you and Nadia (isn't that a female name by the way?) have broken 3RR on that article, although I won't do anything about that right now. Just stop reverting for now (I'll do it if needed) and we'll handle this. I've had some problems myself with Nadia but haven't bothered to take any action. Now may be the time. – Elisson • T • C • 17:48, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm aware of my 3RR violation and that's why I said I figured I might take a bullet on this. Its just been extremely frustrating dealing with this guy (yeah, guy from the early history of his user page - I was corrected on this as well) and other attempts to get the thing straightened away in an appropriate manner have been an utter bust. I can see you've made some reverts and were immediately subject to a dose of the same nonsense. Part of my concern is that User:Nadia Kittel's ill conduct is consistent and fairly widespread, not just limited to this one article. The irony is that he's capable of some good contibutions when he can get past his POV and attitude.

In any case, any whining on my part aside, thanks profusely for your attention - its a relief already. I'll try to stick to more productive edits. Wiggy! 19:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm tempted to rename this section The Chronicles of Nadia, but I shall resist. - Dudesleeper · Talk 18:29, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Ha! You wouldn't be that far off! I dare ya ...  ;) Wiggy! 19:03, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It appears that Nadia has returned as User:141.76.177.36 and is gratuitously tagging articles as requiring sources. In many cases multiple tags are being added to the same article. While many of these articles do indeed require sources the only thing that ALL of these articles have in common is that they were edited by me at some point in time – there is not a single article on the user's contrib list that wasn't edited by me. This is a pretty clear case of bad faith editing and wikistalking. This IP needs to be warned or blocked. Wiggy! 16:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Soviet Union/USSR

I have one question for you, as you are my fellow WikiProject colleagues :), shouldn't "USSR national football team" and related FIFA World Cup templates be renamed to "Soviet Union" form? We already use United States instead of U.S. or USA. I have alredy contacted native Russian users and they are rather in favour of "Soviet Union" form. Thank you. - Darwinek 20:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Move war" imminent at Football (soccer)

This morning the article was moved to association football, along with a few related articles, claiming "majority concensus". While I am involved in the conflict wanting the article to stay, I have failed to see any such consensus, and I moved those articles back just now. Either way, this needs much broader input from experienced football editors, so please, give your opinion on the matter at Talk:Football (soccer). – Elisson • T • C • 18:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] FA drive

Hello all. Having successfully driven three articles over at Wikiproject:Cricket to featured status over the past couple of months, Dweller and I are turning our attentions to our home clubs, starting with Ipswich Town F.C. and then onto Norwich City F.C..

Naturally, we don't own the pages so we'd like to encourage as many people as possible who have a passing interest in pushing an article to WP:FA or in the clubs themselves to get involved. Typically, this process will start with me slapping a few dozen ^{[citation needed]} tags on all uncited "facts". It will make the article appear unsightly in the interim, but it is a very useful way of picking off original research.

While I realise there is a Article Improvement Drive already in play here in the project, I'd still like to encourage others to join in on this mini-version.

Please feel free to contact me or Dweller if you'd like to contribute to the drive or, better still, just get in there. The Rambling Man 11:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Superga air disaster

There’s a degree of disagreement—nothing like an edit war: only reasonable editors are involved!—here over how much credence to give to to the theory that the root cause was diamond smuggling. The theory seems plausible but also surprising and surprisingly single-sourced and undebated elsewhere. All knowledgable contributions welcomed. (And I will be very happy to leave the debate to people better versed in football history!) —Ian Spackman 14:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] National squad template

Could people please give their thoughts on whether the hide option should be added to Template:National squad. There's been a lot of discussion on whether these cause clutter, particularly given that they're likely to increase (e.g. Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2007_March_8#All_national_team_Squad_TP_other_than_World_Cup), and someone suggested the idea of adding the hide option. I had a go User:ArtVandelay13/squadstest which seems to work fairly well, it won't break the existing templates were it changed over, and the only visual changes are pretty minor. No-one objected when I mentioned it on the Tfd page, but when I tried to change it it was reverted and locked, so I'm putting it to the wider community. Any ideas?

Comparison:

	Brazil squad - 1994 FIFA World Cup Champions (4th Title)
1 Taffarel | 2 Jorginho | 3 Ricardo Rocha | 4 Ronaldão | 5 Mauro Silva | 6 Branco | 7 Bebeto | 8 Dunga | 9 Zinho | 10 Raí | 11 Romário | 12 Zetti | 13 Aldair | 14 Cafu | 15 Márcio Santos | 16 Leonardo | 17 Mazinho | 18 Paulo Sérgio | 19 Müller | 20 Ronaldo | 21 Viola | 22 Gilmar | Coach: Parreira

Brazil squad - 1994 FIFA World Cup Champions (4th Title)
	1 Taffarel | 2 Jorginho | 3 Ricardo Rocha | 4 Ronaldão | 5 Mauro Silva | 6 Branco | 7 Bebeto | 8 Dunga | 9 Zinho | 10 Raí | 11 Romário | 12 Zetti | 13 Aldair | 14 Cafu | 15 Márcio Santos | 16 Leonardo | 17 Mazinho | 18 Paulo Sérgio | 19 Müller | 20 Ronaldo | 21 Viola | 22 Gilmar | Coach: Parreira

ArtVandelay13 15:03, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it possible to change the font colour of the show/hide on the France squad to white? I'm pretty clueless on that sort of thing. - Dudesleeper · Talk 15:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't appear that you can, unfortunately. ArtVandelay13 10:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with deleting them, as they are attractive and informative as well as providing links to a lot of other articles. I say keep and add the hide option. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 11:33, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't they default to hide, with a "show" option? Otherwise there seems little point having the functionality... aLii 12:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

They do if there are multiple templates. ArtVandelay13 12:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Admin request

This is rather process-wonkish of me, but can an admin move Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Manchester United F.C. over the redirect? Thanks. Oldelpaso 19:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. – Elisson • T • C • 19:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

And beat me to listing it on the project page too. Oldelpaso 19:23, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] english editors

Why is it editors from england are so eager to add negative information, like diving, to articles of non-english players, but wont add any diving behaviour to the articles of english players. Steven Gerrard being an obvious example (diving in the champions leaugue final, several matches in the pl and against hungary come to mind). No mentioning of diving on Joe Cole and Wayne Rooney either. Yet I always see edits from english ip's adding diving behaviour to the articles of CRonaldo, Drogba or Robben regularly. 85.187.30.2 15:09, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I doubt you'll get an answer from any of the project's participants, since I equally doubt that they do such things. One thing I don't doubt though, is that non-English IP:s have done the same on English player articles. Either way, such information shall be removed unless a good source (or several good sources rather) is provided that says that the player is considered a diver. – Elisson • T • C • 15:20, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Diving is generally a subjective, rather than objective topic, and so it is generally not covered. I personally haven't seen a single instance of it being covered in a Wikipedia article, but perhaps I watch over the wrong ones. Your constant reverting of my wipe of your abusive language on Talk:Steven Gerrard is also not helpful.

Having said that I'll check the articles you mentioned and see what state they are in (I don't watch them). aLii 15:33, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks.

To continue, take Gerrard for instance. He did dive in the CL-final (youtube link...though you wont know from his article cause the editors are deliberately keeping the negative information out, which is vital information. After all, Liverpool would have lost the final had Gerrard not cheated. Leaving it out is unobjective and unencyclopeadic. Instead they say he "won" a penalty. And yes, edits made by english ip's do add diving behavior to non-english players all the time. English players "win" penalties when they dive and those bloody foreigners cheat when diving. 85.187.30.2 15:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Youtube isn't what we call a reliable source. It would be original research for anyone to say that Gerrard dived, and then source it with that video. It would be subjective and anyone could say "I don't see any diving in that video". Give a reliable source that says that Gerrard dived to get the penalty, and I have no objections to it being included in the article. – Elisson • T • C • 15:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I've looked over the three articles. I have removed a comment about having a reputation as a diver from Robben's article. Drogba's article is fine, as the "diving" part is actually a famous quote from himself. Ronaldo's article is the most in need of the WikiProject's attention. Some instances, backed up by large media coverage seem like they should stay, but there seems to be a tendency to write about every instance recently (Middlesborough, Fulham) which doesn't seem quite right.

As regards Gerrard's "dive" in the Champions League final, there was no controversy about it in Britain. If you can provide multiple Italian sources to back up controversy claims, then perhaps it could be covered in his article. Fan or personal POV is not encyclopedic though. aLii 15:53, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

You figured I can't speak ialian. Lame. Well it's common knowledge he cheated anyway. Any member of football365 will tell you! Not surprisingly I can't find any english sources stating it as such. Suppose being biased isn't just the flaw of their editors, English media is blatantly one-sighted too. Did find this link though. Probably won't count. Still funny. 85.187.30.2 16:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I think your attribution of this kind of bias reeks of paranoia, and your characterisation of Liverpool supporters as "In-ger-lund" supporters (on the Steven Gerrard Talk page) is misguided. Anybody on football365 will tell me? Jesus, the day when we start accepting the opinions of football forum members (or God forbid, people who ring up phone-ins) as 'reliable' will be the day I head out of here. Anyway, I think you're missing the point, which is that if you can find reliable foreign language sources which show this is as a commonly represented view (newspapers and the like), then that's something that can be referenced (references don't just have to be in English)- I don't see where you got the impression that anybody "figured you can't speak ialian" (sic). Robotforaday 17:07, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I was, I don't know, facetious with the football365 comment. Anyway, English media is biased and Gerrard obviously dived. 85.187.30.2 19:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

I would hate to ride to the defence of the English media, so I won't. But I think anybody who's played football at that pace and felt the effect of being knocked off balance would say differently- and that's exactly the point, it's completely POV- and posting the video evidence (which is copyright restricted anyway) doesn't make it any less POV, it can be interpreted in more than one way. Robotforaday 20:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Benson

I realize that he isn't the biggest star of English football, but he is the current leading scorer in the Conference National, and his rise to the level he is at is quite remarkable. However, it's difficult for me to find much information regarding his career before Dagenham & Redbridge, and I can't find any biographical information either. If anyone could assist in making this article more complete, it would be appreciated. Che84 18:47, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a warning - if this player hasn't played a game at Football League Two level or above, he'd be a likely candidate to be nominated for AfD - fchd 20:41, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

If he remains on Dagenham & Redbridge, he'll be in League Two very shortly, defeating the purpose of deleting it. Che84 20:51, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Either way, I'd recommend copying his article (from its edit page) into a text file in case the motion is to give it the chop at this moment in time. - Dudesleeper · Talk 20:55, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

Deleted in the past in fact - Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Paul Benson. I just had a few of the players from that AFd speedied as they had been re-created. Whilst policy tells me to go for Benson as well, as Che84 says, with Dagenham all but up I'm not sure there's much point. HornetMike 21:03, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Euro Championship templates

Today, User:SndrAndrss10 added 2000 and 2004 Euro Championship squad templates for Boudewijn Zenden. Now, I'm sure I remember there being consensus to get rid of these things- are am I just being hopelessly optimistic? Robotforaday 20:30, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

That user has done the same for several England players. There's a couple of TfD discussions going on at the moment. - fchd 20:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

As the result of the TfD[15] on the other templates was Keep, this presumably means that a precedent has now been created so there is nothing to prevent the re-creation of Template:England Squad 2000 European Championship & Template:England Squad 2004 European Championship which have only just been deleted, together with templates for every other international tournament there has ever been. What a mess! I'm off to create a template for the England squad for the 1884 British Home Championship. ;) Daemonic Kangaroo 07:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't bother voting because I knew that we'd never get a concensus to delete. The same happened the last time. I've personally stopped bothering to be annoyed by templates. aLii 09:26, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I can't help but wonder how much better the football articles would be if people put their effort into actually writing interesting and engaging text rather than making "cool looking templates". I suppose I'll just have to follow the lead of others and try and not notice them. Robotforaday 15:45, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

What an odd decision from the editor to declare it a consensus for "keep", when 9 people said to keep and 8 to delete. Surely this is a textbook case of "non consensus"? Robotforaday 15:54, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Surely they know consensus would be a landslide for one side? I believe it would be consensus if it was more than 75% for one side, no? CanbekEsen 15:55, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:FOOTBALL redirect keeps getting changed

An anonymous user constantly has been changing the WP:FOOTBALL redirect to point to the american football wikiproject. At this point, I'm not sure what do as it seems that the redirect was first used in this Wikiproject. // Laughing Man 16:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I just put it back with a note on my edit - it was originally established as an association football link. Maybe it needs to go to a disambiguation page that points at each of the existing football forms? Wiggy! 16:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Since all incoming links to that redirect is to this project, I say keep it as it is. – Elisson • T • C • 16:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Johan Cruijff

Hi. I'd be grateful for some input. User:Alii h has made some fairly radical edits which in my view helped the article. Unfortunately they have also annoyed a few previous contributors with their boldness, including I confess myself initially. An edit war is in danger; what we really need is some football-savvy input at Talk:Johan Cruijff#aLii's improvements to the article. Can you spare a few minutes to have a look? Thank you in advance. --Guinnog 20:17, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Just thought that I'd note that my initial interest in this article came from the above discussion "'Greatest' claims". It was then that I first noted how poor the George Best article was. After working on that for a few days this conversation over Pelé's opinion of Best cropped up. There I noted how bad a state the Cruijff article was in.

I have made some initial tidying/rewriting efforts on both articles, but plenty more needs to be done. To that end, yesterday I nominated Johan Cruijff for the Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Article improvement drive.

My personal opinion is that the state of some a lot of the articles about our sport's greatest players is incredibly low.

• Maradona's article for instance contains only five paragraphs about his club career.
• Pelé only has a few paragraphs about his record-breaking club career.
• Franz Beckenbauer has only a few paragraphs about his club career.
• Alfredo Di Stéfano is better, but lacks detail about his international career.
• Michel Platini is actually quite good, but could do with some editing/moving quotes to Wikiquote.
• Eusébio has only three sentences about his 15 years with Benefica.

These are players from the top 10 of the IFFHS player of the century elections. Best and Cruijff now at least have a reasonable amount about their time with Man Utd/Ajax, but the rest of their careers need a lot of fleshing out. aLii 21:14, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lets standardize national team templates

There have been various TFD discussions regarding the national squad templates, and there has been no real consistency to the results either. I've listed them below (shamelessly swiped from a comment in the most recent discussion) for everyone's reference.

• October 17
  • Delete one non-champion squad
• November 13
  • Delete one non-champion squad
• November 17
  • Delete two non-champion squads
• November 21
  • Delete 13 non-champions, 6 champions; keep one champion
  • Deletion review (brought by me) withdrawn because I did not have the energy to fight at the time
• November 30
  • Delete 2 non-champions (plus 4 league all-star templates)
• December 4
  • No consensus; default to keep one champion, and one non-champion
  • Deletion review December 21
    • review was brought on no concensus; closed with suggestion to bring to TFD again
• December 12
  • Delete one non-champion
• February 6
  • No concensus; default to keep one non-champion
• March 8
  • No concensus; default to keep 6 non-champions and 4 champions
• March 14
  • Keep one non-champion

So, the results have been all over the place, tending towards keep recently, against precedents previously set. Personally, I think that a link to a team's roster page for a particular tournament on a player's page is sufficient for our purposes here. See Yoshikatsu Kawaguchi#National team for one example.

But regardless of my opinion on the outcome, I think we need to standardize the rules for inclusion of a national team template on a player's page first. AFAIK, World Cup teams are widely accepted, so I've left them off the list below. I'd like to see what kind of concensus is building towards the rest of these, though. So, please add keep or delete to each section. If concensus is to delete some of these, then, the next step is to work on a standard way to link to rosters from athlete pages. The Kawaguchi example is just one suggestion; but, there is no sense in clouding up the discussion on whether the templates belong or not with details on how to replace the information they contain. Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Types of national team squad templates

[edit] All squads from most recent federation championship (EURO, Asia Cup, etc)

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete all as clutter. Spend time on expanding the articles with text instead. Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Champions from most recent federation championship

• Weak keep Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All squads from most recent Confederations Cup

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Champions from most recent Confederations Cup

• Weak DeleteNeier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All squads from all federations championships

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Champions from all federations championships

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All squads from all Confederations Cups

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Champions from all Confederations Cups

• Delete Neier 13:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Punkmorten 22:23, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete aLii 09:59, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
• Delete – Elisson • T • C • 16:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

I would rather be rid of them all. At the very least, they should be reformatted so that we can combine multiple squads into a single box like I proposed some time ago. Qwghlm 23:21, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

The TP do have good effect, but they clutter. My opinion is to slove the clutter, by hide option And limit the creation of TP by event. That's not reasonable to create TP for every match, so do some Cup just like friendly matches, eg. Lunar New Year Cup, Cyprus International Tournament, Kirin Cup.

I suggest only limit to top regional senior event by AFC, OFC , UEFA, CAN, all senior event by FIFA, and Olympic football before 1992 (before 1992 is a senior event).

That's is

• Asian Cup
• African Cup of Nations
• CONCACAF Gold Cup
• Copa América
• OFC Nations Cup

Europe: UEFA – European Championship

FIFA World Cup

• Confederations Cup
• Olympic football (before 1992)

But no more TP for

• UNCAF Nations Cup (Central America)
• Caribbean Cup
• ASEAN Football Championship
• East Asian Cup
• South Asian Football Federation Cup
• West Asian Football Federation Championship

So i put Template:Hong Kong Squad 2003 East Asian Cup into TFD, but fail by voting of my fellow citizen. Matthew_hk tc 04:53, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I can only repeat my comments earlier at Euro_Championship_templates - the present situation is a mess, and the templates clutter up the articles they get attached to. Ultimately, however, I think this debate will never be resolved and these b####y templates are here to stay. Daemonic Kangaroo 05:10, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I mostly agree with your last sentence, but, I haven't given up hope yet. As Matthew_hk alluded above, individual TFD discussions are usually blanketed by WP:ILIKEIT voting from people in whichever country is listed. If we can build a strong concensus which is free of individual nation bias here, then, our guideline can be moved to the project page, at which point we can cite it in future TFD discussions, and eventually clean up the articles. That's my goal here. Neier 05:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

True. Punkmorten 07:41, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I support this initiative. These templates are spreading like a rash; in many cases they overwhelm the (often very short and poor) articles to which they are added. Centralised discussion and centralised consensus are the way to go I think. --Guinnog 07:46, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

What are confederation competitions? If federations are Euros etc., then...the World Cup? I agree with this too, but if we were to have a mass Tfd drive we'd all need to turn up in order to counter those casual voters. HornetMike 11:13, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you wondering about the Confederations Cup? FIFA brings together the winners of the Euro and other regions every four years, between World Cups, for an 8-team tournament. Lately, it's been held in the upcoming World Cup host nation as a practice of sorts. If concensus here holds its current course over the next week or so, then I think the best thing to do after its inscribed into the project style-guideline is to follow the example used last year when many mast/antenna articles were deleted. They started with a policy, then nominated the shortest and least-notable masts for deletion. Working their way up to taller and taller masts, it snowballed to where concensus fully supported the deletion of most of them. Neier 12:02, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Why not have a "current squad" template (like we have for club teams) and delete the rest? Or has this been ruled out before? Kanaye 16:44, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It would be a huge pain to keep them up-to-date, that's why. Just think of all the players that will be missing this weekend due to injury, then all the ones that have been drafted in to replace them... and this happens every few months/weeks. You'd have to remove and add the templates to articles constantly. aLii 18:28, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd also definitely oppose that approach. National teams often go several months between fixtures - who's to say what would comprise the "current" squad during those periods? Also, for friendlies it isn't unknown for them to pick a squad of 30 or more players - would they all get added to the template and have it added to their articles for a few days? Sounds like an impossible task.... ChrisTheDude 07:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ipswich Town F.C.

Article has no "importance" rating. I'd also invite a member to reconsider the current "B" quality rating. Finally, the article's almost finished at peer review and will shortly be heading to WP:FAC. Tweaks, criticisms and suggestions from you, the people who understand the game are most welcome. Thanks. --Dweller 18:32, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

It's now listed here so please, head over to support if you will, or provide comments, suggestions, etc. Thanks! The Rambling Man 20:28, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

I've given it an "A" rating, and given my support for it becoming a FA. I can't see there being a massive "Oppose" contingency, so the A rating indicates that it is nearly there (now we wait for the FAC to see if it goes to FA). Daniel Bryant 08:37, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Daniel. All contributions from this WikiProject gratefully received. --Dweller 12:32, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a nice article, well constructed, nice layout of images and decent prose. It would also be nice to have an FA of another team from below the top division (I think the only other one is Sheffield Wednesday), so I'll definately support it when the FAC comes round. к1иgf1$н£я5ω1fт 16:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Oops... sorry, didn't mention it's at FAC now. And Norwich City F.C. is the next project for The Rambling Man and myself - in fact, we've already done quite a lot of work, but not sufficient to list yet at Peer Review, let alone FAC. --Dweller 20:04, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notability of English soccer clubs

I am seeking assistance from people knowledgeable about the criteria used to determine whether English soccer clubs are notable. We are looking to develop something for for the various codes of football notable in Australia and we are looking to use that as a possible model. Capitalistroadster 02:25, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

I think you'll find it tough to apply the English model to many other countries. As far as I'm aware it's simply a case of Tier-10 of the league system, and above is notable. However England does have 4 fully-professional, and 1 nearly-fully-professional tiers. Perhaps you could look at doubling the number of professional tiers to get your limit (Would that be 2)? Of course there are always exceptional cases of noteability too.. aLii 11:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

The top-10 tier rule is based on the basis that that is the entry requirement (more or less) for clubs to enter the FA Cup, the senior national cup competition. I would suggest using that as a rule, except there is no national cup in Australia (according to this), though you could perhaps apply the same rule to the various state- or territory-based cups in the country. May not be the best yardstick but it is a suggestion. Qwghlm 12:21, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

• Folks, thank you for your comments. They should prove to be very useful. Capitalistroadster 03:05, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pelé's infobox (goals)

As one of the users that helped to piece together the readily available information about Pelé's total number of goals, it has come to my attention that there is a minor edit war brewing on the article over the number of goals that should be displayed in the infobox. On one hand there is a case for stating the games (goals) for his Santos career as 193 (119), which is the sum total for national league-based competitions. The other argument is that the regional league, the Campeonato Paulista, should be counted, bringing the total to 605 (589). Further details on his career stats breakdown can be seen at Pelé#Goalscoring and appearance record.

The infobox footnote states: Senior club appearances and goals counted for the domestic league only.

I doubt that Pelé's circumstances were in mind when the infobox footnote was formulated, so what does everyone think? aLii 13:03, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not especially "up" on Brazilian domestic football, but I'm sure I read somewhere that the state championships are considered to be of equal prestige with the national league....although maybe I imagined that..... ChrisTheDude 07:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Any opinions? Please? aLii 12:28, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The structure of Brazilian domestic competition is mindblowingly confusing. My understanding (which consists solely of having read the book Futebol: The Brazilian Way of Life) is that as ChrisTheDude says, state championships have more or less equal value. Bear in mind that the Campeonato Brasileiro Série A has only been going since 1971. Oldelpaso 17:06, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Before Campeonato Brasileiro (1971-on) there was Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa (1967-1970) and Torneio Rio-São Paulo -- which from 1950 until 1966 had a national-level status. But Campeonato Paulista have never had a "national" status. It's merely a state-level competition. What if people begin adding every apps and gols from every domestic league in Brazil? The structure of Brazilian football is pretty much based on the English one (not THAT much divisions lol) as were English descendants Charles Miller and Oscar Box who brought football to Brazil. —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 16:53, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

What you fail to explain is that the Torneio Roberto Gomes Pedrosa was not a straight league competition, and that the Torneio Rio-São Paulo was a regional competition, as suggested by the name. There are plenty of Brazilian clubs that are not from either Rio or São Paulo, and as such were excluded from taking part. So are you suggesting that we should state that Pelé only played 84 domestic league games in 19 seasons while at Santos? (With zero appearances in his first 15 seasons!?) Even if we include these two that still only gives 193 appearances in 19 seasons, and then you have the dilemma of explaining why some regional competitions are included, but others are not.

Surely the only logical decision is to list all domestic league appearances including those from the league in which Pelé played most of his games? aLii 22:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Don't mention "logical" in here. We're trying to reach a common sense. If you really want to mention "logical", the "logical" thing to be done, would be removing Roberto Gomes Pedrosa's and Rio-SP's apps and goals as you have just said these are not "straight league competitions". So, please, don't mention "logical". The keyword here is reasonability. We should put in the infobox only one league by season. This is the reasonable thing to do. And to do so, we should pick the main league he's played, year by year: 1956 Campeonato Paulista, 1957-1961 Rio-SP, 1962 Campeonato Paulista, 1963-1966 Rio-SP, 1967-1970 Roberto Gomes Pedrosa and 1971-1974 Campeonato Brasileiro. This is reasonable and fair. Adding two leagues by season? Really not fair. Nor reasonable. Nor "logical". —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 23:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd argue that the "main" league played in by Santos for Pelé's first 15 seasons was the Campeonato Paulista. I don't understand how you can argue that a regional league with only 8 games should be ranked higher than a regional league with 38 games. However picking and choosing which league to count in whichever specific season is obviously nonsense and original research. On that note you should read Wikipedia's policy about original research and why it should not be used. If we decide that only one league should be counted, then that league should obviously be the Campeonato Paulista because it is the only competition that had any kind of stability throughout Pelé's career. aLii 09:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

One thing that's obvious from this is that there's no quick, definitive answer for how many domestic league goals he scored. Perhaps the infobox should state "see below" for his Santos goals, linking to the section describing his complete goalscoring record. That way noone has to make a value judgement about the status of various Brazilian domestic competitions. Oldelpaso 09:48, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have to say that Oldelpaso have the smartest and most reasonable solution. I can agree with it, let's wait for aLii. —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 14:30, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, the infobox was never designed to cope with such situations, so it sounds like a reasonable compromise. aLii 21:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorizing players

Should a player who was signed for some club, but have never played for it, categorized as a player of this club? MaxSem 08:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I presume you mean should we add, for example, Category:Arsenal F.C. players to a player who's in the squad but has never played a match for the club? I'd say no, personally.... ChrisTheDude 09:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say yes. If a player has been part of the squad then others may have information on that player and if he's in a category would be able to spot him there and add the info. I see categories as an aid to expanding content rather than just a list of players. WikiGull 11:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes - if they have been under contract (loan or permanent) with a club and registered with them, then they are player with that club. Current first-team squad members who have not yet played a game would naturally be given the category so it makes sense to extend this to past ones as well. Qwghlm 12:34, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes per WikiGull and Qwghlm. – Elisson • T • C • 16:02, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The Category:Leeds United AFC players stats that "This page lists footballers who have played a 1st team match for Leeds United, of Leeds, England." This should be changed because this is the only category where you have to have played a 1st team game to get in so the likes of Folan and Seaman miss out.Kingjamie 16:22, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

But were Folan or Seaman ever full professional players for Leeds, or even included in match squads for official matches? If not, this is a different issue. Given that an appearance with a fully professional club is a notability criteria, it makes sense to leave out players who were neither a member of the first team squad or signed to a professional contract with a club. Ytny (talk) 16:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Both Folan and Seaman were professionals, Folan was still at Leeds into his 20s. ArtVandelay13 16:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

No definition of x player requires the player to have actually played a first-team game, merely to have been part of the playing squad. To omit players who haven't played renders the category incomplete. The exceptions I'd make are for triallists (except those in countries where they can play for thr first-team), and players that have left clubs before the age of 16. ArtVandelay13 16:40, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

The other exception that should be made, apart from trialists, is players who "guested" for other teams during wartime football - in England at least, this was a highly erratic and idiosyncratic arrangement on a match-by-match basis, not like the formal loans system of today. Qwghlm 23:15, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes - Andy Webster, for example, could rightly be described as a Rangers player - therefore players such as him should be included in these categories. Archibald99  16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I believe the precedent is yes. See Dietmar Hamann and category:Bolton Wanderers F.C. players. The players of nowadays should not be a problem, as they have to sign a contract and the club has to hold the registration (approved by FA or FIFA etc.), so trialists don't count. Not sure about those of yesteryears though. Chanheigeorge 09:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd say no. In my opinion, until he plays for club, he's not a "player". Seaman for example, might be a member of Category:Leeds United reserves players (if such a category ever existed), but not Category:Leeds United players. - fchd 18:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that if a player has had a professional contract with the club, they should be included in the category. I know it's a bit dodgy with people who didn't actually play, but seeing as they were a player for said club I think they should be included. HornetMike 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] SAFC and abbreviations in general

I'd like to discuss the abbreviation SAFC, which has wider implications for abbreviations of football teams in general. My opinion is that if a team is notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, it is also notable to have its abbreviated form appear on a disambiguation page, assuming that the abbreviated form is actually used anywhere in the outside world. Surely a redirect should only be used where there is only one entity to take that abbreviated form?

To that end, I made SAFC a disambig page, pointing to both Sunderland A.F.C.. and Stirling Albion F.C.. But it keeps being reverted back to a redirect to Sunderland A.F.C. only. Having reverted it twice myself, I would rather get a consensus here than enter into an edit war. I did mention it on the Sunderland A.F.C. talk page but it only generated one response.

I completely accept that Sunderland are more notable than Stirling Albion, but Stirling Albion can be abbreviated to SAFC - see here - so surely they should be included? Thoughts anyone? --Jameboy 09:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It should be kept as a disambig page in my view; it could also stand for South Adelaide FC, and of course it may not be used just for football clubs: a quick Google finds it can also stand for Southern Appalachian Forest Coalition, South Australian Film Corporation, and is the former stock exchange code for Safeco. Qwghlm 09:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and Sigma-Aldrich Fine Chemicals as well. Qwghlm 09:56, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Agree with previous all comments. Should be a disambig page. aLii 12:00, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree too ChrisTheDude 12:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

And me WikiGull 12:15, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

And me. I'm not in the mood to edit-war, so I'll leave it to someone else. Daniel Bryant 12:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been bold and made the change ChrisTheDude 12:23, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've done a little bit of a cleanup, following the lead of CCM. Cheers, Daniel Bryant 12:33, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for all the comments and help so far. Just wondered if there is now a need to create the page S.A.F.C. as a redirect to SAFC? Thanks. --Jameboy 13:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Champions" or "champions"?

I know this is a really minor point but I figured I'd bring it up anyway. I've noticed that on a lot of football pages, editors have put things like "So-And-So F.C. were Champions of the Such-And-Such League in 1983" - is there a reason for the use of a capital C on "Champions"? it's not like it's a proper noun..... ChrisTheDude 13:13, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd probably care if I wasn't too busy claiming ownership of the Jeanfield Swifts article. ;) Champions is one of the less irritating capitalisations I've seen - though, other than Footballer thrown into the middle of a sentence, they escape me at present. - Dudesleeper · Talk 13:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I've always used a capital "C" for Champions, as I treat it as a sort-of honorific title. I do the same for "Cup Winners" but not for "runner-up" etc. I think I changed one article from a small c to a capital C earlier today. I wouldn't worry too much if consenus was for a small c though. - fchd 18:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the context, for example:

• IFK Göteborg once again became champions in 1996

and

• IFK Göteborg once again became Swedish Champions in 1996

are both correct, IMHO, since the later can be seen as a title and a proper noun, although "Swedish champions" is correct as well if one choose to not treat the two words as a proper noun. I wouldn't say the same for "Cup Winners" though. – Elisson • T • C • 18:46, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I use "champions". Out of curiosity I looked in a few of my books, usage varies. Oldelpaso 19:11, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Same. Daniel Bryant 22:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I follow the same rule as Ellison. In general I think the small c is better, because champions isn't officially a proper noun. HornetMike 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Featured Article

Hey, thanks to all who contributed and suggested, Ipswich Town F.C. is now a featured article, making it only the sixth English club article to reach this status, and only the second outside the top flight. Hurrah. The Rambling Man 07:13, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Football rivalries - duplication of info.

There appears to be significant crossover between the articles Local derbies in the United Kingdom and List of football (soccer) rivalries. Can these be merged or somehow restructured to prevent duplication? --Jameboy 11:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Whatever happens, the article Local derbies in the United Kingdom cannot just simply be merged with List of football (soccer) rivalries as the UK derbies list is about differing sports, such as football, rugby league, rugby union, cricket and hockey. And not just football. Tangerines 15:51, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ultras and List of ultras groups

Both these pages appear to be a bit of a mess with dead links, multiple links, numerous unverified sources and lists of unverified groups. Both pages are full of alleged ultras groups, many of which are not verified. And it just seems that groups keep getting added without being checked. For instance, in one of the list of groups, a German club - FC Berliner Dynamo has numerous entries. Yet when checked, they all just seem to be links to fan websites, and nothing to do with ultras.

Also, some of the content is more relevant to the pages about football hooliganism, which whilst a similar area is a different subject. I would like to try and work on both the pages to see if they can be made more appropriate for wikipedia and to also then maybe get the idea tp merge the List of ultras groups into the Ultras page finally sorted (At present it would probably make the pages even worse to merge them). It wouldn't be an overnight task as it would take a while to get everything sorted. Would it be in order to make a start on this? Thanks Tangerines 16:01, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

The specific problem you cite related to Berliner FC Dynamo is the result of the misconduct of a particular user and (now) his sockpuppets. If you're curious about the mess you can review that article's history or the related material on this page. I wouldn't feel particularly constrained in patching that stuff up. As for the rest, fixing up articles is good! I say go for it and have fun. Wiggy! 17:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I thought that the example I gave of Berliner FC Dynamo would have been that very same user, having read about the user above! No surprises there really! I will have a go at sorting out both pages this weekend (I did a few days ago partly clean up the England section on the List of ultras groups page). And then, once done, see what everyone thinks. It might look completely different though as there are a lot of dead links on the pages! Thanks, Tangerines 17:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I have tidied up the Ultras article, including deleting all the groups listed that were not verified. The article Hooligan firm has clear guidelines for adding a firm - that there must be a reliable, verified source naming the firm, with a note included on the list stating as such. I have used this same guideline for the groups list on the Ultras page. There were also numerous links to discussion forums, dead links and completely irrelevant links. And especially on the list of German groups, much of the so called "Groups" were just links to Fan pages, news articles, hooligan articles - basically anything but Ultra groups. What will be needed now with that page though is to verify much of the content of the article. Which is what I propose to do next.

However, the article, List of ultras groups is also a total mess in a similar way. Groups just seem to be added without any thought. And it is further confused as the talk page for the article - Talk:List of ultras groups contains no discussion and only contains yet another a list of groups which just seems to have been transposed from the list (as it was previously) on the Ultras article. If this is left as it is, then no doubt some will continue to add to both the talk page and the main page. Which makes no sense then of having a talk page on that article. I am going through the same process again of deleting any unverified groups - this time on both the main page and the talk page. However, I also would suggest that the talk page has the list removed as it is redundant and is also not discussion. Then the talk page can be used for what it is intended, and discussion can take place about merging it into the Ultras article. I hope all this makes sense, but to be honest the pages are confusing and a mess anyway. Would this be in order? Tangerines 13:15, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly support the deletion of list of ultras groups, as an indiscriminate list turned total mess. I could provide a precedence, but as per WP:BEANS I won't. Punkmorten 20:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

If you take a look at the List of ultras groups article now it is no longer a total mess, andc certainly no longer indiscriminate. I have deleted every single group that was not verified on both the talk page and the main page. And over the course of the next few days I intend to amalgamate the two lists from that page into one. And then to see about merging that page into the Ultras page where it can also be regularly checked. Tangerines 21:12, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

• The trouble is that what you might call an ultras group, I might just call a fan club, and vice versa. There's no clearly defined criteria for membership of this list, and should it come to AfD, I woudl probably vote to delete as well. - fchd 21:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
• Indeed, which is why I deleted the vast majority of groups listed. Please bear in mind that, the only reason this is even being discussed is because the two articles Ultras and List of ultras groups had been virtually left unchecked for a long time and so I decided it was time to sort them out. I have gone through every single group listed and only retained those who from their websites call themselves an Ultra group (I May have made mistakes but I will also be checking them all again). It has nothing to do with what I call an ultra group, as personal opinion does not come into it. I am basing it solely on whether the site linked to mentions that the groups are ultras. Obviously I will have made mistakes as I have worked on it most of this weekend and checked probably over 100 websites. But I would also ask that you be patient and bear with me while I try to sort the mess out. The point being that once complete, the page List of ultras groups can be merged with into the Ultras article, and only contain groups who clearly identify themselves as Ultras or in the case of most South American groups - Torcidas etc. Tangerines 21:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
• A further point being that some groups can be moved to either of these pages - Torcida and here - Barra Brava with a note explaining that any South American groups go on those pages. Tangerines 22:24, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of England international footballers

I think this article should be expanded to include every player who has represented England, and not just, as is currently, players who have 25+ caps. Any thoughts/objections? GiantSnowman 20:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree, should be expanded. Archibald99  20:31, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. A complete "list" is better kept as a category. – Elisson • T • C • 20:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

But a category cannot give more information - for example, we could have date of first cap, age when first cap was won, opponents of first cap; date of last cap, age when last cap was won, opponents of last cap; number of goals, all in a sortable wikitable. GiantSnowman 21:29, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, I quite like the idea of a football equilavent of List of English Test cricketers, with the information above. That said, the England players category currently contains 824 articles and is no doubt no fully populated. That's a big list, if done properly. So I'm ambivalent. HornetMike 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I second what HornetMike says - a list of players is a good idea, with caps and appearances etc. included, more than a category can include. Qwghlm 21:23, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

A list similar to that for the cricketers would be great. Much more information than can be given in a category, but a huge undertaking (would be happy to help with it though). WikiGull 12:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

You could use this as a basis; might need to be wary of copyright issues but you cannot really copyright lists of statistics so as long as the format was different from that one it'd be fine, in my opinion. Qwghlm 13:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Great, I'll try and start doing something with this. Do we want to agree on the column headings?WikiGull 14:39, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest:

Name	Caps	Goals	Date of first cap	Opponents of first cap	Age at first cap	Date of last cap	Opponents of last cap	Age at last cap

I also think the table should be organised by date of first cap.

Any thoughts? GiantSnowman 15:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

How about this (with first few lines)

Number	Name	Date of birth	Caps	Goals	Date of first cap	Opponents of first cap	Venue of first cap	Date of last cap	Opponents of last cap
1	Robert Barker	June 19, 1847	1	0	November 30, 1872	Scotland	Hamilton Crescent
2	Ernest Greenhalgh	August 22, 1848	2	0	November 30, 1872	Scotland	Hamilton Crescent	March 8, 1873	Scotland

WikiGull 15:35, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the venue and opposition of first/last caps is a bit much (especially for narrower screens) - just the dates will do for now. Also I would get rid of the number column as well; I would just have name, DoB, caps, goals, first cap date, last cap date. Qwghlm 15:44, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Agree - scrap number and venue. GiantSnowman 16:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

How about using flags for the opposition then? Adds more information to the table without the wideness problem. Have done it for the first 20 players as below

Name	Date of birth	Caps	Goals	Date of first cap	Date of last cap
Robert Barker	June 19, 1847	1	0	November 30, 1872
Ernest Greenhalgh	August 22, 1848	2	0	November 30, 1872	March 8, 1873
Reg Welch	June 20, 1851	2	0	November 30, 1972	March 7, 1874
Fred Chappells	1850	1	0	November 30, 1872
William Maynard	June 19, 1847	2	0	November 30, 1872	March 4, 1876
John Brockbank	August 22, 1848	1	0	November 30, 1872
John Clegg	April 21, 1852	1	0	November 30, 1872
Arnold Smith	April 23, 1850	1	0	November 30, 1872
Cuthbert Ottaway	July 20, 1850	2	0	November 30, 1872	March 7, 1874
Charles Chenery	January 1, 1850	3	1	November 30, 1872	March 7, 1874
Charles Morice	May 27, 1850	1	0	November 30, 1872
Alex Morten	November 15, 1831	1	0	March 8, 1873
Leonard Howell	August 6, 1848	1	0	March 8, 1873
Alfred Goodwyn	March 13, 1850	1	0	March 8, 1873
Robert Vidal	September 3, 1853	1	0	March 8, 1873
Pelham Von Donop	April 28, 1851	2	0	March 8, 1873	March 6, 1875
William Clegg	April 21, 1852	2	0	March 8, 1873	January 18, 1879
Alex Bonsor	1852	2	0	March 8, 1873	March 6, 1875
Hubert Heron	January 30, 1852	5	0	March 8, 1873	March 2, 1878
William Kenyon-Slaney	August 24, 1847	1	0	March 8, 1873

Let me know what you think - have it stored on a subuser page at the minute. Am happy for that to be the working page until it's a bit more detailed if that helps. WikiGull 16:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Looks good to me! GiantSnowman 17:43, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] List of "D" Football Squads

Perhaps someone could take a look at this new article List of "D" Football Squads, please? Means nothing to me I'm afraid. (Though I see its just been put up for a speedy so you may have to be quick!) TerriersFan 03:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Obvious hoax, but hoaxes don't qualify for speedy deletion. I've changed the tag to prod. Oldelpaso 16:56, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1951 Copa Rio

Would you guys please add your opinions in here? —Lesfer ^(t/c/@) 16:31, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Creation of WikiProject Football task forces

Seeing how this project has grown quite large over time, spawning a few subprojects, some successful, some less successful, I was beginning to think about creating task forces instead (and reorganising the subprojects into task forces). The idea is "stolen" (as with a few other past ideas implemented here) from WP:MILHIST, where this type of organisation seems to work very well. This will not be a large change for this project or the subprojects, but will hopefully improve cooperation in the long run.

In short:

• Existing subprojects (Australia, USA and Canada, Italy and Non-League) are reorganised into task forces instead. Not much will be changed, subpages and such will be retained.
• New task forces are created when enough users are willing to keep such task forces up and running.
• Each task force gets a parameter for the {{Football}} template to keep track of articles and assessments of articles related to the task force.
• More centralised than before, better communication and cooperation between the various groups than before, less duplication of info.

The name "task force" may sound a little militaristic, so if anyone has a better idea for a name, suggestions are welcome. I don't intend to do any reorganisation unless there is broad consensus (especially amongst the members of the subprojects) to do so. Comments, suggestions, questions? – Elisson • T • C • 20:20, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] magic spray

I'm surprised we don't have an article on this already. Does anyone object?--Ioshus^(talk) 14:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Surely there's a more proper name for it? "Magic spray" sounds like it should be a re-direct. aLii 15:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Magic sponge? Oldelpaso 19:19, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, yes magic sponge is a part of it. Maybe a bigger article like On field first aid in Football. Maybe you're right Magic spray and Magic sponge could both redirect. From what I have read, the magic sponge has gone out of fashion lately, and the spray has become more commonly used.--Ioshus^(talk) 05:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Defunct or not defunct?

I've been doing some expansion work on Corinthian F.C., and I noticed that, although their adult side folded, they appear to still field teams at youth levels - should they therefore be included in Category:Defunct English football clubs? The club itself isn't technically defunct, but its adult 11-a-side team is. Any thoughts....? ChrisTheDude 08:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The article is about the senior team, and as the senior team is defunct, the category is appropriate. Oldelpaso 09:01, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree - as the entity still operates at some level it is not a defunct club. Articles are about clubs not just their first teams - though obviously that dominates coverage within the articles, it doesn't have to be exclusively about the first team. Qwghlm 09:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with Oldelpaso here. The article is about the senior team, and the category should reflect that the senior team is defunct. Since the youth teams themselves are not notable enough on their own, then the categorisation should not have anything to do with the those. We don't include youth players in the player category of a club, and the same reasoning should be used here. My 2 öre. – Elisson • T • C • 13:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hard breaks in infobox

I'd appreciate it if someone using a browser other than Firefox wouldn't mind comparing the appearances/goals section here and here and letting me know if the former looks right in their browser. I'm puzzled and slightly frustrated by the anonymous editor's ~3,000 contributions. - Dudesleeper · Talk 17:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it makes the clubs 'rows' misaligned from the years and apps (in IE aswell). I've noticed it and fixed it a few times, I didn't realise it was so widespread. ArtVandelay13 17:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Weird indeed. The first one is messed up in Firefox, but the second one is messed up in IE6. I guess the moral of this story is "don't put flags in the infobox." aLii 21:56, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The flags issue is a losing battle, I'm sad to say. They'll soon be appearing in a managerial succession box near you. - Dudesleeper · Talk 00:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The second one looks terrible in IE6, the flags all run together to form what looks like a big stick of seaside rock! ChrisTheDude 07:09, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. It seems the editor had the right idea but went the wrong way about it. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Racism in football

I created this article a while back now, but I seem to be the only one contributing to it. Just thought I'd make you guys aware of its existence, and hopefully get you to make some contributions. I feel it could be a featured article. Cheers. GiantSnowman 13:16, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Back Fc

Someone put a page I made about my local side up for speedy deletaion, and it got deleted. I however feel this was unfairly justified.

Clubs in the Scottish Amateur League(Lowland clubs usually) are allowed pages.

If I followed the criteria from here, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Notability it says your club is "Probably Notable" if you have supplied a player to a national side, wait we have - Andy Gray, albeit that he didn't get chosen until he was at Dundee United. And alot of clubs in Scotland have never supplied a player to the National side, I ask how many players for East Stiringshire have gone on to supply a player for the national side, same with Gretna, same with Elgin.

Another point that is made is the 10+caps rule. 10+ Caps, nail on the head there, how many caps did Andy Gray win? 100+ appearence for a club? he made over 100 appearences for two top level clubs. He played for in all 7 premier divison sides of their respected nations, winning the Cup Winners Cup with one of them, Everton.

Oh another one, clubs, who don't normally charge an entrance fee for spectators, i'll have you know that you do need to pay to get in to a Back Fc game, who do you think we are, a school side?

Also why do England get to have pages for clubs from the first 8 divisons of football? I'm sure the Amateur seen is probably in the top 6 of the Scottish divisons.

Well since you deleted the page, I demand that these club pages should be deleted too since they play at the EXACT same level, except in a different region, but no, I don't see anyone rushing to delete these pages.

St Patrick's Former Pupils F.C. Oban Saints F.C. Eaglesham Amateur F.C.

And all the clubs playing in this league, Central Scottish Amateur Football League and this league Kingdom Caledonian Football League. They all play at the exact same level, and all the clubs are registered with the Scottish Amateur Football Association

Its discrimination against my club I reckon.

So can someone please explain to me why the page got deleted.

Allanmac9 02:07, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Replied on user talk. Oldelpaso 09:36, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Its difficult to tell without seeing the deleted revision (can't find it in the deletion log), but it sounds like a speedy that would perhaps have been better going to AfD. Oldelpaso 14:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Article title had quotation marks around it, possibly "Back F.C."? Archibald99  15:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Found it - [16]. Archibald99  15:09, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

now on AfD. Oldelpaso 19:47, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Archiving of talk page

I thinking of getting MiszaBot to archive this talk page automatically when topics have had no discussion for a while (two weeks? a month?). While I don't anticipate any objections, I thought I'd check first. Oldelpaso 09:41, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I think putting discussion on proper pages is more important. Notability should be used. Matthew_hk tc 10:20, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Ratings garbage"

I thought members of the project might like to respond to this question on the Motherwell F.C. talk page. Archibald99  23:19, 8 April 2007 (UTC)