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Language desk

[edit] April 2

[edit] Japanese label problem

I have a japanese product that I would like to order more. The contents on the box are written in Japanese only. Do you have any suggestion to how I could find the company?71.212.185.172 00:27, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

That's very vague. Can you at least give us a clear picture of the text, or what it is? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 04:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

If you don't mind a little tedium, you could take a look at our katakana and hiragana charts. There's a strong possibility that some of the text on the box is katakana (generally angular), and a smaller chance that some of it is hiragana. You could then transliterate the text into Roman characters and find a translation at Jeffrey's J-E dictionary, or you could paste the Japanese text straight into Babelfish. Alternatively, you could photograph or scan the box and post the image here. If you do that, you'd have an answer pretty quickly, and we could tell you what the kanji are as well. Is the name of the company printed in Roman letters? Often it is. Bhumiya (said/done) 20:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How

How come the Norwegians didn't try what the Icelanders did: use the ancient Old Norse written langauge after independence? Norway had their own written tradition before Danish conquest, why didn't try to use their last written form for their current langauge? A reponse on my talk page would be great appreciated. Thank you!100110100 02:22, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] German's r as a consonant

In my book, the letter r is a consonant /r/ (written as r or rr) in rot, frei and dürre. It's a vowel /a/ (as r or er) in der, wer and Kinder.

What about words like der Arm, die Art and der Herr? What are the general rules of r as a consonant/vowel in relation to its place in a word?--61.92.239.192 02:49, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

R is vocalized before a consonant and at the end of a word in most dialects of German. Certainly in northern accents, the r of Arm, Art, and Herr is usually vocalized. According to the standard "Duden" pronunciation, though, this is true only after long vowels, not after short vowels. Thus the "standard" pronunciation would be [ʔaʁm] and [hɛʁ] with a consonantal r but [ʔaːɐt] with a vocalic r. I've heard German newsreaders follow this rule, but I don't think I've heard any "normal" Germans follow it. —An gr 05:31, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Since when is Arm considered shorter than Art? Wikipeditor 15:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If it helps, I pronounce verärgerte without any consonantic Rs, but Verärgerung with a consonantic last R. Wikipeditor 15:25, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken, that's because the last R in Verärgerung begins a syllable. The (only sometimes according to Duden) vocalized R's close the syllable to which the preceding vowel belongs. Of course Ver-, as a prefix, is its own syllable, despite the following vowel. Wareh 03:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

In standard German (TV pronunciation), r is a consonant at the beginning of a syllable (rot) and after a short vowel (Arm, Dürre, Herr). It is a semi-vowel after a long vowel (der, wer, Tür). The suffix -er is pronounced as a single full vowel (Kinder, Bauer). Chl 02:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Language Learning Idea

I'm very new to Italian. I'm studying on my own, and I plan to start studying an hour or more a night for two months before I head to Italy for three months to work in a restaurant there this summer. I am using a Rosetta Stone language program that strikes me as quite good, especially on the pronunciation and word-to-image-association front, but incomplete in that it teaches all these distinct phrases that leave me feeling like I still can't really speak or understand too well. So I figured the best way to improve my understanding of the language and the way it goes together, especially somewhat colloquially, is to read a book (if I watched a movie right now, I doubt I'd understand more than 5 percent of it). Harry Potter came to mind. The idea is that apart from very sparse wizard-speech it will be very simply written. It was straight forward in English; I can only expect it to be even more so in translation. Also, as a kid's book, I expect that it'd be very colloquial. Most importantly, being a nerd just emerged from my prime wizardry-reading years (between 11 and about 15 -- I'm 18 now -- I was a huge HP fan who read most of the books several times) I would know the book well enough that there would be few moments when I couldn't get the gist of what was being said. And so I expect it would be a fairly fluid (though obviously labored - especially at first) read that would build up a solid vocabulary of colloquial words and terms and even a couple magical ones, as well as a general understanding of how people speak in Italy. Does this strike anybody as as good an idea as it seems to me? Yes? No? I'm just looking for ratification, really. I want to find a secondary way of studying besides a grammar book, and this seems to me like a solid idea. And maybe as I near departure, I can start with the movies (maybe even HP in Italian) to combine all the auditory phrases I know from Rosetta into better audio comprehension. Any additional suggestions? Thanks, Sashafklein 03:54, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

When trying to acquire familiarity with a spoken language, I haven't found literature (which Harry Potter is, even in translation and despite its having juvenile protagonists and a young target readership) as helpful as reading journalistic language. Look on line for mainstream Italian newspapers and popular magazines, possibly of the city where you're headed, and read articles on subjects with which you're familiar (including the food columns!) though not news that's bound to be full of names rather than colloquial language. Otherwise, contact the cultural attache's office at your nearest Italian embassy or consulate, that's likely to sponsor language learning programs geared for conversational fluency rather than reading. Explain your purpose and that you'd appreciate their advice even if you can't attend a course. You also may wish to hire a tutor. Another source is the culture and tourism section of the website of the city or region where you'll be staying. An additional suggestion: read around in an English-Italian dictionary, where you'll be pleased to find lots of phrases far more helpful than isolated words. See the one offered online by the Wordreference website; if you're willing to purchase, look for a CD-ROM from Oxford University Press (whose bilingual dicos in other languages I know to be superlative) or Encarta. For a print bilingual dico, I recommend those produced by Collins, and of course phrasebooks by various publishers are helpful for casual study. Buona fortuna! -- Deborahjay 05:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

To me it looks like a good idea. In fact I also did use the Harry Potter books to improve my reading skills of German and French... :) For me, that had some advantages: 1) I'd already read it in English, so it helps you figure out lots of foreign vocab by context, without the need to look it up. 2) The way they're written is "easy" (easier than other literature or newspapers), with words and strctures that you use in everyday speech, which is useful if you prefer that to other more formal speech. 3) If you like the story you have an incentive to read, and not just "to learn the language". (I also used other books: for young adults, The Little Prince, Isabel Allende's, John Grisham, etc.) As to the listening, you could also get the audio versions of the HP books, they're easily available. --RiseRover|^talk 09:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

When I first came to Germany I learned a lot of German by watching American TV shows dubbed into German. Because shows air here about a year later than they do in America, they were episodes I had already seen in English, so I knew basically what they were talking about. Also, dubbed speech tends to be a bit slower and more carefuly enunciated than "real" German conversation, and use less obscure slang. Now that I've been here 10 years, the dubbed shows get on my nerves with their articificiality, and I hardly watch them at all any more, but in my first year or so here, they were very helpful. —An gr 09:12, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that Harry Potter in Italian seems like a good idea, as does reading newspaper articles on subjects that you're familiar with. Here are my experiences when learning Spanish, listed in order of increasing difficulty:

Translated non-fiction on subjects you're familiar with. Two I found useful in Spanish: Beginnings by Isaac Asimov, The Demon-haunted world, by Carl Sagan.
Non-fiction originally written in the language you're learning, on subjects you're familiar with.
Newspaper articles.
Translated literature, fiction. The difficulty will of course vary with the translation, but in my experience, literature that's translated into Spanish is a lot easier to understand than literature originally written in Spanish.
Literature (fiction) originally written in the language you're learning.

I'd avoid the so called 'easy readers'. Their only merit is that they're short, I did not find them particularly easy to understand. I'd also recommend finding podcasts on subjects that interest you. Good luck! --NorwegianBlue^talk 13:02, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

May I ask in which Italian city/region you will be working? I'm asking because the inhabitants of certain regions, particularly in Southern Italy and Sicily, may speak dialect versions that can be surprisingly difficult to understand for someone who learned classical Italian (lingua toscana in bocca romana) at first. The locals will understand you, of course, and you'll eventually get the hang of it, but I knew an American who came to Bari, and though she had studied Italian and spoke it fluently, she was initially unprepared for and somewhat frustrated with the Pugliese variety. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Near Milan. I think I'm safe. Sashafklein 02:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yep, most likely. :-) You still might wish to read up on lombard language, for history's sake. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sluzzelin (talk • contribs) 03:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] on train/trains/rail/rails?

I'm showing my live travelling odometer by train as signature at instant messengers, someone suggest me use "on train/trains" but others suggest "on rail/rails". My signature is like "2007: xxxx km on (train/trains/rail/rails)". Which word should I use in this situation? Yao Ziyuan 11:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"On rails" here is using an idiom (one that I think works well), while "on trains" is literally true. I think the second sounds too blunt, while the first is a little playful, but either would be OK. Neither "on train" or "on rail" is correct. Tesseran 13:55, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"xxxx km by train" also works. I find hundreds of Google hits for "km by train" against one unique hit for "km on rails", the latter with actually a different meaning. --Lambiam ^Talk 20:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

And to complete the set, "by rail" also works. So you want "on rails", "on trains", "by rail", or "by train". I prefer the two "by" versions. --Anonymous, April 2, 2007, 21:25 (UTC).

[edit] Pronounciation "Samuel Fuller"

How do I pronounce correctly the family name of Mr Fuller? "f[u]ller" or "f[a]ller"? Thanks... PhHertzog 18:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

F[u]ller. Marco polo 18:04, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what sounds the symbols [u] and [a] are intended to represent. I've always assumed the surname was [ˈfʊlɚ], the same as the comparative adjective fuller meaning "more full"; with the vowel sound [ʊ] of full, pull, put, should, would, could, good, wood, etc. Is this incorrect? jnestorius^(talk) 20:56, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The origin of the surname is the profession of fuller, though this harkens back to the adjective, so your comment can follow on from there.... - Nunh-huh 21:11, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both comments made since mine. The question came from a German user, and I inferred that he was referring to roughly the sounds those vowels would have in German. In fact, "Fuller" is pronounced in English much as the name would be pronounced if it were in German. The only difference is that Mr. Fuller was American and most Americans would add an [ɹ] after the final vowel. On the other hand, Mr. Fuller spent his youth in Worcester, Massachusetts, and New York City, both places where non-rhotic accents prevailed. So he himself probably did not end his name with that consonant. Marco polo 21:45, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary, the agent-noun fuller is probably directly from Latin fullo[1], which has the same meaning[2]. Even though pronounced like the adjective, the word appears not to be etymologically related to the adjective. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:00, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I wondered whether, as a Russian-Jewish immigrant adopting an English-sounding name, Samuel's father might have used an idiosyncratic pronunciation for Fuller. I guess not. jnestorius^(talk) 22:15, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Just as an aside, I would say it should be pronounced in whatever way Mr. Fuller prefers. One personal experience: I have a friend whose family name is Kołodziejczyk, but often said it was pronounced "Smith". (Yes, he did know the proper (Polish) pronunciation, but got tired of people mispronouncing it.) It was quite funny when we met and began working together, since we both have the same given name, and my family name really is Smith, so he coundn't use his "alias" any more. In short, any way Mr. Fuller prefers. Esseh 02:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

One would have to contact people who knew Mr. Fuller to be sure; however, when immigrants convert their names to typical English names like Fuller, they generally want the name pronounced in the standard way. It is this standard pronunciation that we have described. Marco polo 12:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tootsie Footsie Whaaaaa?

On IMDB, reading reviews for Bridge to Terabithia, I saw the following comment:

I got a chance to watch this movie through a DVD and what I had in mind about this movie is that its going to be yet another tootsie footsie children's flick, but I was totally wrong !!

The reviewer self-identifies as being in India. So, my question is, is 'toosie footsie' a known term? What does it mean? Is it local to the Indian Subcontinent? Is it British? Anchoress 22:30, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I never heard the term before, but some research using Google told me that there exist "Mary Kay Tootsie Footsie parties", which apparently are parties in which the (female) participants are treated to a pedicure (with MK products, which are then sold to the participants). The term is used in a more general sense to mean "pampering", which perhaps is the origin of the MK use. An old use is in tootsie footsie ice cream, words uttered by Chico in a Marx Brothers skit.[3] My best guess for the sense of its use in the imdb comment is: "feel-good". In any case, there does not seem to be a tie to India. --Lambiam ^Talk 08:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I've heard "tootsie footsie" in a way that might match the subject matter. It's people, usually of opposite sex, rubbing their feet together, often under the table, secretly, in a romantic manner. This is the type of thing preteens might do while at the dinner table. The use of the term "footsie" is obvious, and "tootsie" (or just "toots"), I believe, is an archaic term for a girlfriend. So, the term means "to play footsie with one's tootsie". I'm from the US, incidentally, but don't know if the term is only used here. StuRat 17:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for your answers. Anchoress 02:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. StuRat 05:37, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] translation

hi! Anybody of you out there who could help me translate this notice from French into Filipino? Not so good at this language. - chay —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.192.56.58 (talk) 22:59, 2 April 2007 (UTC).

Le porte télécommande peut être fixé au mur ou posé sur un meuble.
Il peut contenir six télécommandes

If no one replies to this, I recommend finding users who have categorized themselves as both speakers of Filipino and French, and asking one of them kindly on their talk page. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:40, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I can do French to English, if that helps.

The remote (control)-holder can be attached to a wall or left loose (literally " placed on a piece of furniture").
It can hold six remotes (or remote controls).

So, if you can do the English → Filipino part, you should be OK. Was that any help? Esseh 02:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Justin Time 4 Just Ella

On the Wikipedian link Just Ella and in the description of Lucille, there is a phrase called "suck up". What does it mean? In the Merriam-Webster's 11th edition Collegiate dictionary, it says: "to draw liquid into the mouth". Coffsneeze has corrected the article by writing "complaining or enduring" to match the context; however, there is doubt if this is true to the story.Coffsneeze 23:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Suck up" is defined here (under "phrasal verbs"). I have no idea what "complaining or enduring" is supposed to mean in this context, though. --Anonymous, April 3, 00:11 (UTC).

So, it is like flattery?Coffsneeze 00:20, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

To 'suck up' to someone is to behave in an obsequious and fawning manner towards them. The addition of the words 'or complain or endure' robs the passage on Lucille of all sense. Clio the Muse 00:28, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok; don't like it? Well, "Just suck it up, Marine!" Colloquial or informal. To absorb or endure a difficult, punishing, distasteful or unpleasant situation. Kinda-sorta like "tough shit", "so what", "big deal", or "deal with it"? Sound like what's being said? Would depend on the context, though (I guess... IMHO... et cetera). Thoughts? Esseh 02:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Suck it up" is different from "suck up to (someone)". --Anon, April 3, 06:22 (UTC).

People in Australia who wish to retain the monarchy rather than become a republic are often said to be "sucking up to the Queen". This sounds rather vulgar to me, but then, we are a nation of sophisticated vulgarians. JackofOz 06:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Good points Anon and Jack. However, how about someone who perversely enjoys or seeks out difficult, dangerous, nasty and/or disagreeable jobs most (sane?) people would avoid. Rarely used, but I have heard of soldiers that just suck up combat conditions, politicians who suck up the stress of electioneering, stock brokers who suck up the stress of trading pits... and so on. The notable difference is the absence of the word "to". Sucking up to someone I don't think is nation-specific either, JackofOz. Certainly the expression is very common in North America, and not just toward Monarchs/Heads-of-State: e.g. academics wrt deans, bidness (business) types wrt company CEOs, many people wrt local, provincial/state, and/or federal potiticians, and so on. Vulgar? Definitely. Common? Also certainly, I think. (We used to have a little ditty in the military that went: There's a brown ring 'round his nose, and every day it grows and grows.... The inference is rather clear, and that was quite some time ago in NA! Oh, and Aussies are great IMHO, and based on my one trip there and working with a few here. Not really vulgar so much as irreverent. Quite refreshing, I found... Esseh 06:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that, mate. In the sense you're using "suck up", we have a similar expression - "lap up". Editing Wikipedia is hard going for some people, but he really lapped it up. JackofOz 10:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think Esseh might be sucking up to us, JackofOz... Adambrowne666 12:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Er... no, but I do admit to sucking up quantities of great Aussie beer when I was down there (sadly, long ago)... And don't be irreverent! Your Worship is welcome here. (I love a bad pun...) Esseh 18:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Me too, and ditto on the thanks from Jack - Adambrowne666 10:12, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 3

[edit] Twelfth Night

In Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, where Malvolio is trapped in a dark room, Feste, the fool, disguises himself as Sir Topas, the curate, to scare the "hyperbolical fiend" out of Malvolio. What's the point of Feste dressing up if Malvolio sees nothing but darkness? Thanks very much for responding. Mayfare 02:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

More for comic effect, and the amusement of the audience, than to fool Malvolio, I would imagine. But the man you really have to ask has been dead for four hundred years! Clio the Muse 05:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin question

Does anybody know the what the vowel lengths (in other words, the stress) would be for the Latin names Henricus and Ludovicus? With Henricus, for example, Italian Enrico suggests that it would be Hĕnrīcŭs, but German Heinrich suggests that it would be Hĕnrĭcŭs. --Lazar Taxon 02:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that people were always paying strict attention to the classical Latin penultimate-if-heavy stress rule by the time those names came into common use in medieval Latin, since a sytematic phonemic long-short vowel opposition no longer existed in the vernacular speech of the great majority of Romance-language speakers. I know that one pronunciation of Latin used for teaching purposes in modern France completely ignores the penultimate-if-heavy stress rule. However, the penultimate vowels in those two words were probably originally long in early Germanic... AnonMoos 03:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Both in -īcus. Italian pronunciation is a pretty reliable guide; German isn't, because the language would tend to shift the stress back on the first syllable anyway (though, in this case, the fact that Heinrich is a Germanic name, not an import from Latin, is more relevant to its history in German!). Wareh 03:33, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

In singing latin, I believe (weakly) that you sing either italian or german style. Polypipe Wrangler 11:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] TRANSLATION OF LATIN INTO DUTCH

Dear, I am searching for the translation of an old latin " STULTITIAM ODI " into Dutch . thanks a lot —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.224.39.207 (talk) 02:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

In English, it would be "I hate stupidity". AnonMoos 03:04, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Although the author of the slogan may have had the meaning of "stupidity" in mind, perhaps "folly" or "foolishness" is closer to the meaning in classical Latin, as in Laus Stultitiae. Babel Fish translates I hate folly into Ik haat dwaasheid. The Dutch Wikipedia suggests the alternative translation zotheid. The word stupidity is translated by Babel Fish as stompzinnigheid. --Lambiam ^Talk 07:45, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

One of many reasons I like language: In Dutch, the word stupidity translates to what sounds like, to englishperson's ears, stomps in the head. And that's just perfect. Jfarber 15:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually it would the syllables are stomp-zin-nig-heid and not stompz-inn-i-gheid. So it is quite unlike stomps in the head. C mon 18:42, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

It would be "ik haat stompzinnigheid (or) zotheid (or) domheid (or) dwaasheid (or) gekte" pick one, they mean slightly different things. C mon 12:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 'Yat'?

Hi - I'm reading Martin Amis's The Information, in which he has Black Londoners using the word yat. Can anyone tell me what it means?

Thanks,

12:02, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

a quick look on the urban dictionary gives three meanings. 1. New Orleans native. From the local greeting, "Where ya at." 2. A Female "Young Ass Teen" 3. A Australian Word coming from the words Yuck and Chat used to put emphasis on something gross or disgusting. ... So the meaning would depend on the context, though I would lean toward definition 2, given that that definitions 1 and 3 are from other parts of the world. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Czmtzc (talk • contribs) 12:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] The Guillotine

Why wasn't the guillotine named the 'guillotin'? Why is the extra 'e' added? 66.213.29.242 13:13, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

In other words it was invented by Dr Guillotin but they added an e to the end. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Czmtzc (talk • contribs) 13:16, 3 April 2007 (UTC).

Why did they add an 'e'? Who is 'they'? Was the name changed because of the French language rule of translating a person's name to a thing? Or was it because 'Guillotine' helped English speakers pronounce 'Guillotin' correctly? 66.213.29.242 13:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The French article on Dr Guillotin spells the device with an extra E on the end. So this is not due to translation to English since I will assume that the French writers of the article know the difference. There must be some rule in French. The answer to the original question would be a definition of this mysterious French spelling rule. I was trying to clarify the question in my previuos post.-Czmtzc 14:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

This is just a guess, but maybe the extra e has something to do with guillotine being a feminine noun? The French Guillotine article starts with La guillotine. This is another guess, but maybe it started with la Guillotine machine, since machine is feminine as well. --Kjoonlee 18:55, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Checking the page fr:Liste d'anthroponymes devenus noms communs, there are also Micheline from Michelin, and praline (previously prasline) from maréchal de Plessis-Praslin; and in French but not English fr:rustine from fr:Louis Rustin. Rather different is nicotine from Jean Nicot. However, Jean Anthelme Brillat-Savarin gave us the savarin pastry, with no e; likewise fr:Sébastien Bottin's directory is the Bottin. There may be something to Kjoon's masculine/feminine theory. Then again, the guillotine was earlier called Louisette or Louison after fr:Antoine Louis, a colleague of Dr Guillotin. jnestorius^(talk) 21:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Clio the Muse has found ~~the answer~~ one theory, in answer to a related question on the Humanities page here - 4th post down. JackofOz 01:39, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I like Jnestorius' information here better; the problem with the "English poet" theory is that you have to suppose the French (re)imported the (now current French) form guillotine from English, something that dodgy page Clio found doesn't seem bold enough to claim. Wareh 03:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Schilsted"

I was reading the Wikipedia article on Portuguese wine, and under the subsection "Port Wine and Douro wines" the first sentence is "The Port Wine vineyards grow in schilsted soil, with a particular climate and a particular vinification method, this wine is very particular and it is known worldwide." I try to look up all new words I find when reading, but I have been unable to figure out the definition of "Schilsted". Both Google and OED didn't help much. Does anyone know where I might be able to find the meaning?--Zippyt 14:35, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is a typo, and the intended word was schisted -- meaning heavy in Schist or seeded with schist. I imagine that the presence of schist in soil would affect vineyard production. (Note: I wouldn't assume a typo so easily if the sentence you cite did not suffer from a few other problems as well...) Jfarber 14:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

You are right! I followed the links at the bottom of the page and indeed they do reference "schist" in the soil. Thanks!--Zippyt 04:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sexual euphemisms.

Does anyone know any commonly used euphemisms for the female orgasm apart from 'the Big O'. There seem to be lots for male ejaculation (Busting a nut, etc) but I am struggling for the girls equivalent. Thanks. 85.211.204.138 16:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Pick up a Harlequin Romance novel or some other bodice ripper, I'm sure they are full of such terms. StuRat 16:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The big 'O' isn't just to describe female orgasms. 'Le petit mort' is also a generic term for orgasm, but it is seldom used in reference to men. Anchoress 21:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Really? I have only heard this term used in reference to men. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 23:09, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Do you remember where? Anchoress 22:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it was The Multi-Orgasmic Man by Mantak Chia and Douglas Abrams. However, I would say the author reiterated the idea of le petit mort into his own terms. I found the phrase in question: "In China, however, doctors long ago saw what the French call le petit mort—'the little death' of ejaculation—as an unavoidable betrayal of male pleasure and a dangerous depletion of male virility." It does not suggest, as I had previously thought, that the French meant the term to be exclusive to men. − Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 01:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Any other places? Anchoress 11:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pronouncing Hiroshima

What is the correct way to pronounce Hiroshima? I've heard a number of varients and I don't know which one is more correct than the other. If you provide it in IPA, please try and provide it in a way that people not familiar with IPA will also understand, as I find Wikipedia's IPA pages hard to follow for practical purposes. i.e., is it Hee-roe-shee-ma, or Heroash-eema, or something else? --140.247.243.111 16:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The two you've listed are the only two I've heard. StuRat 16:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The correct syllabification (with a rough phonetic transcription into American English) is hee-roe-shee-maa. According to Merriam Webster's Geographical Dictionary, the preferred pronunciation is with the stress on the third syllable. There is an alternative pronunciation with the stress on the second syllable. Japanese does not have stress in the same way that English does. In Japanese, all four syllables would receive roughly equal stress, so that is no help in choosing between the two English stress patterns. Marco polo 17:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the Japanese pronounce it more like "Hee-ROASH-ma", with the stress on the second mora and the "i" of "shi" elided, in the same way that Matsushita is pronounced "Ma-TSU-shta". "Heero-SHEE-muh" strikes me as an Anglicized pronunciation, although it's much more common in my experience. "Huh-ROASH-uh-muh" is how I generally pronounce it, and I hear a lot of English-speakers pronounce it similarly. Bhumiya (said/done) 17:51, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Bhumiya, it may sound to English ears as if the second syllable is stressed, but in Japanese all syllables have equal stress. I think that you are right that the vowel in the mora "shi" is not strongly pronounced, but the consonant [ʃ] ("sh") is then pronounced with compensatory volume. To the Japanese, this is a completely separate syllable from the preceding "ro", but to English ears (listening for a nonexistent stressed syllable), it may sound as though there is a syllable "rosh" that receives double the emphasis and is pronounced for twice as long as the other syllables. No matter how you pronounce it using English phonotactics, the word will sound foreign to Japanese ears. For that reason, I think that the choice between the English stress patterns is a toss up, with perhaps a slight advantage for the pronunciation that is conventionally preferred, if your goal is to maximize comprehension for an English-speaking audience. Marco polo 18:37, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Marco. (Hope you don't mind if I use the familiar). My (admittedly limited) interpretation of the Japanese pronunciation is the same - no inflection, therefore no stress. Spoken, some sylables are perhaps elongated (drawn out), but never stressed in the European sense. Arigato gozai-mas, sensei. Esseh 07:25, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish: "the most"

In Spanish, how would you say something like, "the subject that I've studied the most", or "the one that I like the most?" --Lazar Taxon 19:01, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

The word to use in these cases is más. For example, "la materia que he más estudiado", or "el que me más gusta". Marco polo 19:23, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Or, in correct word order, "la materia que más he estudiado" or "el que más me gusta" :)--RiseRover|^talk 19:32, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, RiseRover. :) Marco polo 19:34, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

But the song "Me Gustan Todas" uses "Pero esa rubia, me gusta más". Is that just a poetic affectation, or would that be a more correct word order? Corvus cornix 19:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Pero esa rubia me gusta más" would translate as "But I like that blonde better" (not "the most"). The superlative would be, "Pero esa rubia es la que más me gusta".--RiseRover|^talk 07:13, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Corvus cornix 20:45, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 4

[edit] The Oath - Frank E. Peretti

I am having to write a paper for my night school class, based off of the book I have been reading, which is Frank E. Peretti's - "The Oath." In beginning my paper, I have tried to find and introduction to write, can you please help me further understand what a possible introduction, could be in this fictional book?

What exactly are you supposed to be writing about? Just a book report?? -Elmer Clark 04:59, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, you need to get some basic info out of the way first, like the name of the book and author, year published, etc. Next you can briefly describe the genre of the book (sci-fi ?), setting (location, time), and perhaps a few main characters. That should about do it for the intro. StuRat 20:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Need an English word for this definition

Definition: Inappropriately dignified treatment of the commonplace. What is the word? NoClutter 02:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"An incongruous combination of high and low" could be bathos; a more artful use of a high style to treat a low subject could be parody. Wareh 03:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Affectation, grandiosity, pomposity, pretension, ostentation, portentousness. Any of these might fit the bill to a greater or lesser extent. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 11:29, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

"Exalt", "glorify", "aggrandize", "enshrine", "boost", "elevate", "lift", "promote", "raise", "upgrade", "uplift", "heighten", "idealize", "romanticize", "canonize", "deify", "acclaim", "extol", "laud", "praise". StuRat 19:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Those refer to "dignified treatment", but most don't cover "inappropriately" or "commonplace", StuRat. Jfarber 21:36, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russian

I've been trying to find the translation of 'спрус'. Doing a google search in wikipedia, I deduced that it is a last name, Sprouse. Is this correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.231.151.161 (talk) 04:54, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

Yes, you could transliterate "Cпрус" as "Sprouse" -- it'd be a little unconventional, but surnames don't always follow the rules of transliteration. It's probably not a Russian surname, more likely Sprouse is the original name, and it's transliterated into Russian, and not the other way around. --JayHenry 05:47, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I think "Spruce" would better convey the pronunciation. For me, "Sprouse" rhymes with cows. —An gr 05:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, "Cпрус" would rhyme with Moose. But I doubt it's a Russian word or name at all. "Sprouse" is likely the real name, and "Cпрус" is just a Russian approximation, therefore, when translating back into the Roman Alphabet, you return to the original spelling. --JayHenry 05:56, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless it's the name of a person whose family moved to Russia some generations ago and have become thoroughly Russianised but without going so far as to Russianise their name to, say, Спрусов. In such a case, Спрус should be transliterated according to whatever transliteration system you're using. Not sure how you'd know whether that's the case or not, though. Btw, there's no such word as спрус in the Oxford Russian-English dictionary - the closest words are спрут (octopus) and спрос (demand). JackofOz 06:42, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Russian Wikipedia's article on Big Daddy transliterates the actors Dylan and Cole Sprouse to Дилан Спрус and Коул Спрус . And the article on West Virginia transliterates the state's highest point Spruce Knob to Спрус-Ноб. ---Sluzzelin talk 09:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Some people pronounce "Sprouse" like "Spruce".[4]. Perhaps that also applies to the Sprouse brothers. --Lambiam ^Talk 10:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] French

How does this go in English ?

C'est dans un temple du Dieu de l'Evangile, c'est dans l'Eglise de ces religieux appelés Jacobins, que Mirabeau appelle tous les adeptes des Loges Parisiennes. C'est là qu'il s'établit avec ces mêmes hommes qui composaient son club Breton. La horde des Frères conjurés se hâte de le suivre. Dès cet instant, le temple n'est plus connu dans l'histoire de la révolution que sous le nom de Club; le nom de ces anciens Religieux, qui jadis faisaient retentir des louanges du Dieu vivant, passe à la horde même qui en fait l'école de ses blasphèmes & le centre de ses complots. Bientôt l'Europe entière ne connaît les chefs & les acteurs, les promoteurs, les admirateurs de la Révolution Française, que sous ce même nom de Jacobins. La malédiction une fois prononcée sur cette dénomination, il était juste en quelque sorte qu'elle dît à elle seule, tout ce qui existait de Sophistes de l' impiété, conjurés contre Dieu & son Christ, de sophistes de la rebellion, conjurés contre Dieu & les Rois, de sophistes de l' anarchie, conjurés contre toute société —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.157.226.53 (talk) 08:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

If you don't need a polished translation: It is in a temple of the God of the Gospels, in the Church of these friars called Jacobins, that Mirabeau calls all the followers of the Parisian Loges together. It is there that he established himself with these very men who formed his Club Breton. The horde of the conspiring Brothers hastens to follow him. From this moment on, the temple is only known in the history of the revolution by the name of Club; the name of these former Friars, who formerly made the praise of the living God resound, passes on to the horde, which even turns it into the school of its blasphemies & the center of its complots. Soon, all of Europe only knows the leaders & the actors, the promoters, the admirors of the French revolution, by this same name of Jacobins. Once the curse had been pronounced on this appellation, it was in some sense fair that it only applied to itself, all of it consisting of Sophists of impiety, conspiring against God & his Christ, sophists of the rebellion, conspiring against God & the Kings, sophists of anarchy, conspiring against all of society. From Google Translate, with a few touch ups. --Lambiam ^Talk 12:36, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linguistica.

Nel passaggio fra termini simili di varie lingue europee, si rileva abbastanza spesso uno scambio fra le lettere "B" e "V". (ora mi viene in mente il "basilico" in greco, oppure il termine marinaro "mettere le vele a riva" che vuol dire issare le vele ,vedi lo spagnolo "arriba"). Da cosa deriva questa intercambiabilità ? Graziepaolo de magistris 16:28, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

The /b/ sound is a plosive consonant, while the /v/ sound is a fricative consonant. It is very common for plosives to become fricatives through a process called lenition. It has happened in the history of both Greek and Spanish. —An gr 16:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

(Il suono di /b/ è una consonante occlusiva mentre il suono di /v/ è una consonante fricativa. E molto normale per occlusive di diventare fricative per un processo che si chiama lenizione. É successo così nella storia di entrambe la lingua greca e la lingua spagnola.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sluzzelin (talk • contribs) 16:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Which is correct?

Which is more correct... "Turn for the worse" or "Turn for the worst"? We have been having a big debate for a few minutes now on which one is more grammatically correct. Thanks a million!!! --Zach 18:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard it as "(taking a) turn for the worse". The Cambridge International Dictionary of Idioms (1998) agrees with me. Jfarber 18:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I've googled both and Turn for the worse gets 24,500,000 hits while Turn for the worst gets 35,000,000, so it looks like more people are using the latter. Also used a dictionary for both:

Worse: more unpleasant, difficult or severe than before or than something else that is also bad.
Worst: of the lowest quality, or the most unpleasant, difficult or severe.

I'd have gone with worst as it is often used in similar examples: He is my worst enemy, the worst meal I've ever eaten, etc.

Worse is used more is sentences like If the rain gets any worse we'll have to stop walking. But this one throws me off again: The heat is much worse in the daytime. So, in conclusion, I don't know. Think outside the box 19:52, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

You have to search for the complete phrase. Searching without quotes around the phrase just finds pages that have the words "turn" and "worse" or "worst" in them. "Turn for the worse" gets 1,020,000 results [5] and "Turn for the worst" gets only 179,000, [6], a ratio of more than 5 to 1 in favor of the former. Nohat 20:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, equivalent Google News searches, which has results consisting mostly of professionally-edited sources, the ratio is even higher, at almost 20 to 1. This leads me to believe that the form "turn for the worst" is a low-frequency accidental permutation (an eggcorn) of the original idiom "turn for the worse". Nohat 20:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

From the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary: "take a turn for the better/worse". I've never heard "turn for the worst" and would personally regard it as a minor error, the kind of slip native speakers often make. It's rarer to use "turn for the better", which might more easily be altered to "turn for the best" by analogy with "hope for the best". However, Google produces a 20:1 trend favouring "better". While Google books is only 4:1, most "turn for the best" are false positives like "where to turn for the best advice". Compare also "if/when worse/worst come(s) to worst" where the Random House Dictionary of the English Language says "worst comes to worst" is the original while the Columbia Guide to Standard American English surmises "worse comes to worst" might be the original. jnestorius^(talk) 22:55, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Toponymic names in Irish?

How would you say in Irish that a person is from a particular location? I've looked up the word for "from" - which is as according to Wiktionary. I'm trying to figure out how to construct a name based on a person's origin (something that generally doesn't appear in Irish names, since most Irish surnames are patronymic in origin); so say if I wanted to translate the name "Michael of Derry" into Irish. Would that be "Mícheál as Doire"? If not, could you please explain? Thank you very much for your time. --Brasswatchman 21:44, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... The way to say "Michael is from Derry" is Is as Doire é Mícheál, but I've never encountered names of the "Robin of Locksley"/"Joseph of Arimathea" format in Irish. The closest I can think of is names like Mac Lachlainn "son of Scandinavia" and Breatnach "Welshman", but of course those are used for people whose ancestors were from outside Ireland, not from a town in Ireland. —An gr 04:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you again for your help, Angr. A quick follow-up question: I'm assuming that the Breat part of Breatnach is related to Briton; so that should mean that nach is equivalent to "man" or "of somewhere," right? So maybe you could get away with Doirenach in the example I described? Thanks. --Brasswatchman 15:25, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the breatn- part is related to Briton, and -ach is a suffix (cf. Francach "Frenchman"). But it's not so productive that you can automatically add it to anything; I don't know how to say "Dubliner" in Irish, but I'm pretty certain it isn't "Baile Átha Cliathach". So I wouldn't assume that Doireach is Irish for Derryman without evidence. —An gr 15:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Right. Oh, well. Thank you for your help again. I really appreciate it. --Brasswatchman 21:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 5

[edit] quick documentation of wiki

i'm doing a project and i used wiki.. i am wondering how to write a proper bibliography for a website. what is the proper way to write one for wikipedia? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.165.212.181 (talk) 00:39, 5 April 2007 (UTC).

Check out Wikipedia:Citing Wikipedia. --TotoBaggins 02:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] pre-SSR: "Belorussia" vs. "Byelorussia" in US English

Query posted on the Belarus discussion (Talk) page: I need to know the preferred spelling in US English for this region's name when it was part of Imperial Russia. Is there a particular etymology for either of these variants that indicates which might be the more authoritative? -- Thanks, Deborahjay 05:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The choice has nothing to do with etymology, but purely reflects different ways of transliterating the Cyrillic into the Latin alphabet. The traditional name in Russian is Белоруссия (note the letter о, unlike the Belarusian name Беларус), in which the single letter "е" is pronounced like /jɛ/, or English "ye". There have always been different methods for the romanization of Russian, some of which would render Russian "е" like Latin "e", others like Latin "ye". For geographic names the currently common BGN/PCGN system is a standard (adopted both by the United States Board on Geographic Names and by the Permanent Committee on Geographical Names for British Official Use), and the choice (which is context-dependent) made here, following a consonant, it just "e". The system is not entirely rational; since "э" is also romanized as "e", there is no easy way back (the system is not "round trip"), and in the similar cases of ю and я the transliterations are always "yu" and "ya". In any case, its use is official policy on Wikipedia. So, for example, we also write "Belorechensk", and likewise it should be "Belorussia". (Not everyone is always happy with this policy.) See the end of this page for more on the etymology. --Lambiam ^Talk 08:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Postscriptum. Actually, following the BGN/PCGN rules, it should be "Belorussiya". Now that is a fairly uncommon spelling. In Google hits:

Byelorussia: about 827,000
Belorussia: about 1,420,000
Byelorussiya: about 377
Belorussiya: about 13,100

--Lambiam ^Talk 08:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

In the days of Imperial Russia, the region in question was probably most commonly called White Russia in English anyway. I think Belorussia or Byelorussia was the usual English name in the days of the USSR, and Belarus has predominated since independence in 1990/91. —An gr 08:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

(Remark drafted prior to edit conflict):My question's specificially about the pre-SSR name. The translated term "White Russia" may indeed have been an historical usage in US English (though perhaps not exclusively of "Byelorussia"), as W.R. appears in the Random House unabridged dictionary with the definition: Byelorussia. However, some of the argument of that page indicates that the term may have a bogus quality I'd do well to avoid, as my text is for a museum exhibit. So I'm following Lambiam's lead to represent the name in transliteration from the local language of the period. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

List of country names in various languages has: "Belorussia or Byelorussia (former English), Belorussiya - Белоруссия (Russian)". The choice seems to be (apart from the English name used then) between the English name commonly used now for the region then (where there are two contenders of about equal frequency), and the transliteration of the Russian name. --Lambiam ^Talk 08:53, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me the question is not about how Белоруссия should or should not be transliterated today, but what English speakers actually called the region in 1886. I think it's more a history question than a language question. I agree with Angr, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't simply generally called "White Russia" back then. JackofOz 09:23, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

See above remark regarding rejection of the translated name for my purposes. -- Deborahjay 09:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

For a museum exhibition, you might just say something like "in what is today Belarus". Using either "Belarus" or "B(y)elorussia" in a reference to an 1886 event is an anachronism. Also, as I comment at Talk:Belarus, there wasn't an administrative unit corresponding to Belarus/Byelorussia/White Russia at the time. —An gr 09:46, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

That's our practice for explanatory texts (such as in the online archives) where space is not at a premium. However, to remain within the style and space limitations of the exhibit display, using an historical form of the region's name (coupled with a date in the 19th Century) suits the purpose just fine. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 10:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, the least anachronistic historical form of the region's name in English is "White Russia". —An gr 11:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Persian alphabet

If anyone has a second for my little question, what I was trying to find out was whether there is a difference in pronunciation between the following groups of letters in Persian/Farsi:

se, sin, sad
ze, za, zad
te, ta

Does each group have the same pronunciation (i.e. /s/, /z/, /t/, respectively)? Thanks in advance! --Dpr 17:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

According to our articles Persian alphabet and Persian phonology, the letters on each line are indeed homophonic. For /z/ you even have a quadruplet: you can add the letter zal to it. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:44, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Chinese character number 1

Can you tell me the meaning of this Chinese character before I make it into a charm? Thanks. Nebraska bob 18:21, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

It means number.

In Chinese: 数
In Japanese: 数
In Korean: 數

The Korean version is the most conservative in this case. --Kjoonlee 20:09, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] onery

What is the etiology of the word "onery?" I have to assume that since it isn't in wikipedia that it existed before the beginning and human understanding of the word has been as inherent to our selves as remembering to breathe while we sleep. Please help. ^^^^

Assuming you have the same word on'ry, ornery, etc., in mind, your question was answered recently. See: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2007_March_28#Lonesome.2C_On.27ry_and_Mean. Wareh 20:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Is etiology the right word here? It kinda works - in its meaning as cause - but did the questioner mean etymology? Adambrowne666 04:28, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pertaining to Linguists/Speech Pathologists

I hope this doesn't go under miscellaneous. I'm an instructor who is teaching an intro spanish/english phonetics course in the coming weeks, and I'd love to be able to direct my students to websites where they can download a font that would allow them to type in IPA, thereby making their homeworks easier. I've always used the symbol mode of microsoft word, and it proves tedious and frustrating. Does anyone know of a place where these fonts can be downloaded for free, or even a good program to use? I'm new to this field of linguistics. Also, I'm sure some students will have macs, is there one for them as well? Will they be mutually intelligable so I can have them submit transcriptions online and I can grade them? Help! (I really appreciate whoever sits around to answer these, it's so helpful)

Pañuelo24.123.234.125 20:49, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The IPA article has links to online resources for IPA input. If it's fonts you want, the IPA article also links to Doulos SIL, Charis SIL and Gentium. (Get the Unicode versions, not the legacy versions.) My personal favourite is DejaVu Sans. --Kjoonlee 21:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

But for printing, I might use Gentium or Doulos SIL. I've been getting very fond of Gentium lately. :) --Kjoonlee

[edit] What is the word origin of "sticks in my craw"?

What is the word origin of "sticks in my craw"?

The word "craw" refers to the crop or stomach, usually of an animal. To "stick in the craw" literally means to get stuck during or following swallowing. This explains why the idiom means "to leave an unpleasant feeling". The word "craw" is related to the Danish word "kro" and the Dutch word "kraag", meaning craw or neck. I'm not sure whether it entered English from Anglo-Saxon or through borrowing from Dutch or Old Norse. Apparently it can be traced to an Indo-European root, *gwrogh, which meant something like "throat" or "gullet". Marco polo 22:00, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

There's an entry on this expression in fossil words by the way Adambrowne666 04:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 6

[edit] Chinese character number 9

Can you tell me the meaning of this Chinese character before I make it into a charm? I think it means model or pattern but I'm not sure. Thanks. Nebraska bob 01:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The pinyin is xíng. Here is its wiktionary page. --Cam 01:53, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I noticed in the definition that the strokes and other criteria were listed. Where can I find a complete list and the patterns for every character? Nebraska bob 02:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

A Chinese dictionary? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 03:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Not sure if a standard Chinese dictionary lists the character criteria as the Wiktionary does for my purpose of classification but that's what I need. I also need bitmaps in order to apply a very simple neural networking technique for character recognition. Nebraska bob 03:47, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I linked to Chinese-Chinese dictionaries. In these, they're sorted by radical, then stroke, then pronounciation. Radicals are sorted by the number of strokes as well. So you would get number of strokes in the radical plus the number of strokes not counting the radical, the same way wiktionary does it. As for bitmaps, paper-based Chinese-Chinese dictionaries obviously won't have that. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 05:44, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Chinese: 技术发电
Korean: 技術發電

I'm pretty sure these letters are correct, but I'm a bit curious about the second letter; the top-right point is a Zhuó in your image, but I think it should be a Cè. Eight Principles of Yong.

BTW, the first two letters together mean "technique/technology" and the last two letters together mean "generation [of] electricity". --Kjoonlee 08:58, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

--Kjoonlee 09:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

And if you only need a few bitmaps for personal use, then there's Unicode Character Search from FileFormat.Info. They provide bitmaps, SVGs and more.

--Kjoonlee 09:32, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The character editor in the program Learn Chinese by Jerome Dangu offers character recognition capability but produces extremely varied results based on extremely minor difference in input.

The character recognition approach I’m using is intended to recognize characters which have been recreated from hand drawn characters by pasting preformed strokes. A list of uniform strokes is therefore required for character recreation by method of pasting uniform strokes.

Once hand written characters are duplicated in this manner the program can attempt to recognize the character by simply assessing multiple two dimensional attributes of the character within each cell; each character being overlaid with a logical grid of cells. If stroke direction is indicated by the width of the ends of a stroke, for instance, then stroke direction will be used by the program as an attribute. Likewise any two dimensional difference within a cell can be used as an attribute by the program. A uniform stroke set used in this way to recreate hand drawn characters makes analysis by the program much easier and accurate. The program does not yet have the ability to slide characters around within the grid or change their size or orientation.

Nebraska bob 13:30, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Err, maybe you'd want to ask at the Computing Desk instead..? :) --Kjoonlee 19:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

In Windows XP, it should be possible to use Microsoft's character recognition. Just install a support pack for any CJK language, switch to East Asian script via the IME, click on "Pad" and then "Handwriting". Wikipeditor 11:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese lyrics translation

I need some help translating these Japanese song lyrics "dareka o suki ni naru, fushigi na kanjou o,dou sureba ii no ka saeyoku wakaranai yo". Sorry I only have the romaji! --Candy-Panda 12:21, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Not an exact translation, but I recognize some of the words. It says that when you like/love someone, you get strange feelings and you don't know what to do. I wonder what saeyoku means. --Kjoonlee 12:37, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it should be sae yoku, so the translation is more like if only I knew what to do. --Auximines 13:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

It means "When I start to love someone, I don't even know what to do about these feelings I'm not used to". 'Sae' serves to intensify or emphasize the words that come before.CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 19:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Arigato gozaimashita! ^^ --Candy-Panda 06:15, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] F

What is the earliset (known) instance of someone speaking the F word? As in, when did it become a part of the english language?Cuban Cigar 13:29, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Because people regard the word as a taboo (as you show by referring to it as "the F word"), we can be sure that it was spoken in English long before our first record of it in print, which is in the poetry of William Dunbar, 1503 ("Be his feiris he wald haue fukkit"). By 1535, the OED can give us a sentence that could still be spoken today: "Bischops..may fuck thair fill and be vnmaryit." Wareh 13:51, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

We actually have an article, Fuck, which discusses the etymology of the word. Its origins are quite ancient. The word is older than the English language, as it was part of Proto-Germanic. So it became a part of the English language at the same time as the English language came into being. Marco polo 14:13, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Lol it seems they have everything on wikipedia-thanks all.Cuban Cigar 07:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] root words in arabic

82.42.72.5 15:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

How do I work out a root word in arabic?

I have been trying to figure out the root of الايامى I thought it may be AYM, but this is the plural of the word, so would i need to know the singlular then find the root? Would it make a difference?

Thank you.

As a beginner, I find a good dictionary very helpful, but it still takes me a lot of flipping back and forth to find the roots. I know that الايام (without the yaa at the end) means "the days" so maybe this is from the root YWM. --Cam 16:11, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

So the singular of "ayama" is "yawma"?

I believe it's "yawm".CCLemon-ここは寒いぜ！ 23:59, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 发电型

Is there a better translation than "brushless electric type" for 发电型 ? Nebraska bob 16:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

"发电" means "electricity generation" so "发电型" would probably be "type of electricity generation". --Cam 16:42, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that phrase is in popular or common usage. All my dictionaries do not include it. - SpLo T // 17:26, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The photos of the actual characters have slight differences to the unincode text. Perhaps the difference holds a different meaning:

Nebraska bob 20:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

发电型 probably means "electricity-generating type". --Kjoonlee 20:24, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Google translate agrees. What would be the characters for "electricity-using type"? Nebraska bob 22:18, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

The Korean way of saying that would be 非發電型. 非发电型, or non-"electricy-generating" type. --Kjoonlee 23:02, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Google translation is: 电力用型 Nebraska bob 23:17, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Putting all characters together in listed order: 频技术发电型数码变 Google gives: "Power-frequency technology, several code changes" which makes no sense to me at all. Nebraska bob 23:23, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

数码变 is probably related to cameras or zooming. Try a Google image search. --Kjoonlee 00:22, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow! That is amazing. A Google image search reveals there are literally hundreds of possibilities. Nebraska bob 00:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Errrr, that's nothing. Just try a Google image search for "set". (j/k) --Kjoonlee 01:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Digital zoom? 数码 seems to mean digital, judging from zh:数码照相机. 照相机 means camera. --Kjoonlee 00:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

So it would be more like "frequency technology electricity-generating type digital zoom". --Kjoonlee 00:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Here is another translation after removing spaces between characters and inserting a extra space between #6 and 7..."...Digital variable frequency power generation technology..." Could this be "...frequency (phase) modulated digital power generation technology..."? If so it might make a little more sense. Nebraska bob 02:00, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Even better is "...Variable-frequency generation digital technology ..." found by puting #7-9 characters first followed by #1-6, i.e, 数码变频技术发电型 Nebraska bob 02:04, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Errr, machine translation can't be trusted very much... What was the actual original order of the letters anyway? BTW, Chinese (Classical Chinese, anyway) doesn't use spaces. --Kjoonlee 07:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The order can only be determined from the meaning of the characters since they were inscribed on a ring or circle perimeter with the center of 7-9, 180 degrees opposite the center of 1-6. The order with 7 first seems to provide the best (computer) transalation and less so if the space between 9 and 1 is removed, i.e., 数码变频技术发电型 "Frequency - generation digital technology" versus 数码变频技术发电型 which gives "Variable-frequency generation digital technology" that better describes the function, although 可变相位代数字技术 which results in "variable-phase generation digital technology" would be more precise depending upon what the statement is actually refering to. Nebraska bob 22:37, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Egyptian language

What language did Amenhotep III speak?

Since this pharaoh lived in the 14th century BCE, he most likely spoke Middle Egyptian. --Lambiam ^Talk 20:41, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Translation from German to English

Could you please translate this paragraph from your website, as it is about a part of my family I have been looking for for many yearsStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC) The following is copied from this website and pasted hereStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Die Magdalena Farmwald odder die Magdalena Fordewald waar en Amischfraa ass gewuhnt hot in Strasbourg, Alsace. Sie iss zu Amerikaa kumme in 1847. Sie iss kumme mit ihrer Schweschder die Elizabeth Farmwald unn mit ihrem Buh, der Jacob Farmwald. Die Magdalena hot welle noch Amerikaa geh eb ihre Buh Military-Age waar. Sie waare uff em See fer sex Woche. Sie hot fimf Schweschder ghatt. Sie waare die Elizabeth, die Barbara, die Fannie, die Katie unn die Mary. Mir weese nix meh baut die Fannie, die Katie unn die Mary. Es iss meeglich ass sie gesettelt hot in Holmes Kaundi, Ohio, awwer mir iss net schur

Thank you stormiegriStormiegri 23:00, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, it not really (modern) German, but I give it a try:

Magdalena Farmwald, or Magdalena Fordewald was an Amish woman that lived in Strasbourg, Alsace. She came to America in 1847. She came with her sister, Elizabeth Farmwald, and with her son Jacob Farmwald. (incomprehensible sentence here). They were on sea for six weeks. She had five sisters. They were Elizbeth, Babera, Fannie, katie and Mary. We don't know anything about Fannie ,Kathie and Marry. It's possible they settled in Holmes Kaundi (county?), Ohio, but I'm not sure.

-85.212.33.33 00:18, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

My guess for the "incomprehensible sentence" is "Magdalena wanted to go to America ~~because~~ before her son was military age". I should point out it isn't written in Standard German, but rather Pennsylvania German (it comes from the Pennsylvania German Wikipedia at pdc:Magdalena Farmwald). At any rate, Holmes County, Ohio is right; it's a county with a very high proportion of Amish residents. —An gr 05:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Eb here means "before". --Lambiam ^Talk 10:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! I've corrected my translation accordingly. —An gr 11:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The language in question looks like Luxembourgeois to me.ScouseMouse - スカウサーUK! 21:33, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

It is a direct quote from the Pennsylvania German Wikipedia; see pdc:Magdalena Farmwald. —An gr 22:02, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Where Pennsylvania German is the same as "Pennsylvania Dutch" – Dutch here has nothing to do with the language of the Netherlands and part of Belgium, but means Deutsch, i.e., German. --Lambiam ^Talk 22:05, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 7

[edit] Latin phrase

Sir Thomas Bodley, in one of his many letters to Thomas James, the first librarian of the Bodleian, quotes this Latin proverb: "Ad pauca respicientes de facili hallucinator." Can anyone provide a rough translation? Babrahamse 06:59, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it is a variation on a saying ascribed to Aristotle, which in Latin is: Ad pauca respicientes de facili enunciant. I think (but am not too sure of my translation) that this roughly means "They speak with ease about (a) few things." I don't have a Latin dictionary here, and all online dictionaries that I know of are unreachable right now. In the variant, instead of "They speak", read "I dream". The Latin master is quoted by Fortescue in his Governance of England.[7] He provides the following explanation in English, which does not truly aid my understanding: thai that see but few thynges, woll sone say thair advyses. I think I'm better in understanding a translation into Russian found here: "They understand too little, but too easily give advice". I cannot quite match that with the Latin, in particular the word "understand". If respicientes refers to the subject of enunciant, then the grammatically required agreement in number is not obeyed in the Bodleian variation. --Lambiam ^Talk 10:41, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hallucinator doesn't mean "I dream", hallucinor/alucinor does. It could be a misprint for hallucinatur, or, to agree with respicientes, hallucinantur. —An gr 12:03, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Hallucinator could be the agent noun (nominative singular) derived from the verb. The verb (apparently more often spelled with a single "l" in classical Latin, according to what my dictionary says) could also mean "to talk idly", which could be the meaning here... AnonMoos 12:34, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Right. Hallucinator could possibly mean "dreamer", or "idle talker"; however, that does not seem to make sense in the context. As a verb "to talk idly" fits with "say thair advyses" / "give advice", and could possibly be simply an alternative translation of the (to me) unknown Greek. I saw that the version with enunciant is also quoted by Gaetanus in a commentary on a work by Aquinas.[8] --Lambiam ^Talk 12:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I found the original Bodley quote at Google Book Search. It is "Ad pauca respicientes de facili hallucinantur." --Cam 14:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Using Google Book Search I found the Greek original in a page of notes in an edition of Governance of England. Unfortunately, the text was scanned at a low resolution and is hard to read; in particular I could not make out the last word. This is what I deciphered: προς ολιγα βλεφαντες, αποφαιναντες ρ??ον. Here we find both verb forms to be agreeing participles. Αποφαινω can mean many things, including "to give an opinion". So altogether we have something like: "Seeing [= understanding] few things [= little], [but] ρ??ον [= eagerly?] giving an opinion". I further found another Latin version with the variant paralogizantur for the last word; presumably this Greek loanword also means something like "to utter" or "to talk (idly)". --Lambiam ^Talk 18:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The Aristotle passage is De generatione et corruptione 316a9-10 (πρὸς ὀλίγα βλέψαντες, ἀποφαίνονται ῥᾷον). For many more Latin quotations, google pauca respicientes facile. Alucinantur means "talk idly, prate," so it doesn't change at all the meaning of the Latin tag as usually quoted, which is that a narrowness of experience makes it easy to babble forth ignorant proclamations. Oh, and, for Lambiam, there's a place online where you can consult Lewis & Short's Latin dictionary (LSJ too) at lightning speed that is not as precarious as Perseus, etc. Wareh 18:35, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should make this the motto of the reference desk :) :(. Thanks for the link. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Those interested in the original Aristotelian context should see Joachim's translation (search for "those whom devotion to abstract discussions has rendered unobservant of the facts are too ready to dogmatize on the basis of a few observations"). Wareh 18:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all, and sorry for the "scribal error." I copied it out of a book into my notebook, because I couldn't check it out. ~~Lambian~~ Wareh's "a narrowness of experience makes it easy to babble forth ignorant proclamations" makes sense in the context of the letter. Babrahamse 21:23, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pupil, Student, Academic, Scholar

Is there a difference between those four words mentioned above?
Also, is 'anomaly' the antonym of 'normally'? Are they related in some way? Can an elementary school or infant school be considered academia?69.218.220.86 16:47, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, no, no, no. —An gr 18:07, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Explain why you stated 'no'.69.218.220.86 18:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

For the last question, see Academia.

The Greek word nomos means "law" or "rule", and the prefix a- indicates a negation. The word anomaly is a noun. An anomaly is something that "does not fit the rule", in particular a rule or law that is proposed as an abstraction of observed phenomena. You might call four-leaf clover an anomaly, the rule being that clover is three-leaved. See further Anomaly. The corresponding adjective is anomalous, and the adverb is then anomalously. If an observed rule is turned into a norm, then something anomalous is also abnormal – the true antonym of "normal". There is also a word anomie, which also comes from a- + nomos, but it originally meant a situation of lawlessness. The origin of the Latin word norma (whence norm and normal) is unknown, but a relationship with Greek nomos is not particularly likely.

The word scholar has three distinct meanings. The first is similar to academic, but puts more emphasis on learnedness than on institutionalized knowledge transfer. The second is similar to student. The third is someone who has been awarded a scholarship, who may be a scholar already in the first or second sense. Student can also mean: someone who is studying something outside of any regular context. Apart from that, pupil and student mean almost the same, but for differences in use see further Student. You can find out such things yourself in Wikipedia by typing the word in the seeachbox in the left margin and clicking Search. --Lambiam ^Talk 18:45, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Some people say "pupil" should be used for youngsters (say, before high school) and "student" thereafter. A scholar or academic sould be someone like a university professor or researcher. -- Mwalcoff 01:10, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

That's a fair account of current U.S. usage, but certainly "scholar" has often been used appropriately of schoolboys and "pupil" of disciples who only met their masters during adulthood. Wareh 00:09, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] April 8

[edit] iris-out

What does iris-out mean? I can't find a definition even on Google. --Smokizzy 03:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

One of the top "iris out" google matches is an explanation of Iris-In/Iris-Out from All Movie Guide. "Iris-out" effectually wipes the full image from the screen by seemingly closing the aperture decreasing the size of the picture on the screen until it becomes a circular point of light, eventually going to black. jnestorius^(talk) 03:54, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! --Smokizzy 04:18, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Punjabi words

What does "Chak De" and "Punjabi Virsa" mean? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.14.119.84 (talk) 13:33, 8 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Icelandic runes

I know that Younger Futhark was used in Scandinavia, but which variant, specifically, was used in Iceland? Was it the Danish version, or the Norwegian one? --Śiva 18:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Be or To Have Been... a Brother

Take two brothers, person A and person B, and B is deceased. Why is it that in many languages, as with English, one says that A's brother was B? Why is it that the status of brotherhood between two siblings has to be lost when one dies? Onthologically, wouldn't being a brother once make one be a brother forever, whether alive or dead?--JLdesAlpins 19:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It's precisely because fraternity is permanent that it is not necessary to use the present tense; "B was my brother" implies, not that B is no longer my brother, but rather that B is deceased. OTOH, "B was my husband" could mean either we are divorced or he is deceased; hence "ex-husband" and "late husband" to resolve the ambiguity. jnestorius^(talk) 20:44, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Unless we have a major medical breakthrough, being a "late husband" is also rather permanent. So would you say "B was my late husband" rather than "B is my late husband"? --Lambiam ^Talk 20:55, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

A person's status of being dead is a present and ongoing situation. So I think that when referring to a deceased spouse, one might say "Bob was my husband (but he died three years ago in a freak car-waxing accident)" or "Bob is my late husband." But because a dead person isn't doing much currently, you might also say, "that orbital waxer belonged to my late husband" rather than "that orbital waxer belongs to my late husband." Crypticfirefly 22:43, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Language isn't about logic. Words like "brother" are not mathematical arguments and tenses (and other functional elements or forms) only superficially resemble mathematical operators, mapping logical relationships. There is only a superficial resemblance. In other words, don't expect tenses to act like time indicators relating things in the real world. What happens is that words relay information in a kind of indeterminate way, which is only determined in the brain. The most reasonable way to construe "he was my brother" is that the brother is dead. That's why it works. mnewmanqc 01:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

"Bob was my late husband" would suggest resurrection has occurred. Even if she had divorced Bob and he later died, she would still use the present tense to say "Bob is my late ex-husband". JackofOz 01:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

All this leaves the question open: when, in admittedly non-logical natural language, is it idiomatic to use the past tense in the copula for deceased subjects. The criterion is apparently not simply the proposed permanence of the relationship given by the predicate, as evidenced by the counter-example of the late husband; in fact, another contributor argues the opposite, but that does not conform to the case of the deceased brother. Two aspects appear to enter: Permanence of the relationship ("P"), and eXplicitness with which the predicate implies that the subject died ("X"). A possible criterion is: mark for past tense unless both P and X. This even explains the resurrection implied by "Bob was my late husband"; since "late" implies X, and the past tense implies NOT(P AND X), we conclude to NOT P: Bob has ceased to be the speaker's late husband. If Bob was still dead, he would still be the speaker's late husband. Therefore, Bob is. --Lambiam ^Talk 03:36, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I would never, ever say "Bob is my late husband", except to be sardonic ("Who's this 'Bob' guy who's in all your family pictures?" "'Bob' is my late husband, you ignorant twat.") . I probably wouldn't use "late husband" in this construction at all ("Bob was my husband" is more natural), but if I did I might use "Bob was my late husband" in recounting a story about the past that takes place after my husband died. ("I had to get all of Bob's affairs in order -- Bob was my late husband, you see -- before the marriage with Harry could proceed.") Tesseran 07:07, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The term blue

Need to find a connection to the word blue via it's definitions. For example the word court can be a court of law, a basketball court, or to court an individual. With all of these you have boundaries, competition, you have rules, there is a code of behavior, I am wondering how to with the use of the word blue find some connections with its' definitions.68.237.12.156 00:19, 9 April 2007 (UTC)≠

Well, this should help some. It gives a list of definitions, and explains at least how the "sad" meaning of "blue" came to be. -Elmer Clark 04:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What is this German word?

I remember correcting a German person at a conversation only to be met with a reply that sounds like "Act-zol!". Anyone know what it means? --JDitto 04:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Ach so – rather untranslatable (literally "Oh, thus"), but definitely an acknowledgement that they hear what you're saying, and do choose not to contradict you. In English you might say "I see" in the same circumstances. --Lambiam ^Talk 04:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC).

Ohhh, okay. Thanks Lambiam.--JDitto 05:53, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Theater of Cruelty

In the commentary for the Interview with the Vampire DVD, they explain some background for the Theater of Vampires. Apparently, around that time in Paris there actually were theaters that specialized in the low-tech equivalent of horror movies and snuff films. The word they used for these theaters I couldn't quite understand, but it sounded like 'gongignole', and they translated it as Theater of Cruelty. Any idea what the word is? Black Carrot 06:41, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Grand Guignol. Tesseran 07:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

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